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| Decline of Rail Related Hobbies? https://rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39768 |
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| Author: | J3a-614 [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Decline of Rail Related Hobbies? |
About how we are getting long in the tooth--a "rant" from Facebook. Stephen Trinder Rant Time (it's not political, but will open a can of worms)! The hobbies of model railroading and railfanning are in decline. This is a fact, the hobbies are graying and failing to attract to new blood. Why? Well I've been hearing a lot of cranky old men blame Nintendo, while video games are starting to eat into the hobby industry our branch was in decline when that company was still making playing cards and no American knew that name. Most railfans amd model railroaders view the 1950's as a golden age. I understand where they are coming from, there were still steam locomotives, the mega-mergers had yet to occur, passenger trains were still common (and the trains were actually run by the railroads themselves, not Amtrak), most branch lines were still in place, every town had a depot and every boy wanted an electric train for Christmas. But we need to look at it more objectively. Railroading is a business and as a business the 1950's were actually a very dark time. Airlines and automobiles were eating into the railroad's business and most of the passenger trains were only being kept alive by mail contracts. By the end of the decade America's train culture had been almost completely destroyed. Model Railroading was not immune, 1957 was the last year the Lionel Corporation made a profit on its train line, the company went bankrupt in 1969 and the train line was acquired by General Mills of all people! There are two other events that occurred in 1957 though that contributed to this decline: 1) 1957 was the first year airlines carried more passengers than railroads and 2) Sputnik was launched into space. This turned everybody's fascination away from the rails and up to the sky. Don't forget the previous year, work began on the Interstate Highway System. When people are interested in transport, what to forms do they tend to be fans of? Cars, obviously; and if a second interest develops, aviation. In fact lets not forget that slot cars were invented to replace model trains in the way real cars replaced real trains in our culture. Go to the magazine rack, notice how there are dozens and dozens of car titles yet only a couple railroad titles (including model railroads)? That's no coincidence. OK, you respond, but interest is also declining in cars and planes from an enthusiast standpoint! True, part of it is an increasing sense of environment consciousness, and that cars are becoming more and more expensive and in our Post-9/11 society, good luck getting to see a plane up close. But there is something we also need to consider: the world of transportation is far more boring that it was in the past. When it comes to cars, you had the Austin Mini and the original Volkswagen Beetle, we had the Toyota Camry and the Honda Civic, or even worse a minivan. For you flying was an adventure and planes were a novelty. For us flying is a chore accompanied by an invasive security check. For you railroading was a big 4-8-4 charging past with the express, for us it was yet another nondescript Dash-9 or SD40-2 from some generic conglomerate. So can you blame today's kids for not taking an interest in trains? I can't. Just because I was lucky enough to have experienced a steam engine and a childhood train set doesn't mean everybody was. So let's stop singling out a not-so-no new technology that you don't understand and look at the big picture. GM, United and even NASA had just as much a role in this hobby's decline as Nintendo. Let's spread the blame a bit more fairly from now on. Floor open for discussion. |
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| Author: | dinwitty [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
South Shore is expanding its service, Seattle adds more LRVs etc service, Roanoke revives the former Norfolk Southern (original) Electric around the bay surprised at the ridership on it...Catskill Mountain people complaining why the trains werent running, Milwaukee starting a small streetcar service, Kenosha expands its streetcar service, I tend to think what goes around comes around. From the way some things happen I would almost expect a North Shore revival if things go like they are. Rather interesting a TV show called 50plusprime has been featuring some model railroad stuff. I'm not going to count out the hobby at all, but maybe 50-100 years from now it may be all differrent. We have been in a technical explosion here, consider telegraph was the thing barely 100 years ago. |
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| Author: | fairmontdave [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
Almost every hobby has been complaining of this. Coin and stamp collecting are down, even the county fair is not as popular as it was. Booths in the exhibit hall are empty and not as many animals, vegetables, plants being shown as over the years past. I've had people say to me, "Why do I need to own________ when I can just have an image of it on my phone"? Which does not bode well for any of us with collections of treasured stuff. Also, there is SO MUCH more out there than there was years ago. Go to a bookstore and look at the amount of space that science fiction/fantasy takes up? Maybe 40 % of the store? Amazing......and how much does science and engineering have? Maybe 2 to 4 3 foot shelves...... And so many people now work in air-conditioned offices and move electrons around.....hard to find people who will come out and drive spikes and get sweaty and dirty. There will always be a few who enjoy it and get some satisfaction out of it, but there will never be ENOUGH! To me, working around a tourist railroad/shortline is fascinating due to all the different things you can do. From putting new steel beams in a bridge, to rebuilding an air brake valve, to painting the station....every workday is something new and different. Even trackwork has it quirks and odd jobs and there is great satisfaction in every new tie that gets installed. But, everything about the railroad is WORK...and you have to do some to really participate. BUT, you've got to get out of bed, pack your lunch and go down to the rr....hard to do after working all week and trying to keep house and family functioning....but the pull is strong...... We try to nurture and encourage all the young people that we can. Get them involved, let them do the "fun stuff" and try to teach them your skills. Hopefully it take hold and they develop enough passion and interest and they will be next generation. |
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| Author: | steamfan765 [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
tastes in hobbies changes from every generation. Every hobby has to evolve to keep people interested in that hobby. It's like retail I know I'm getting off task here but here me out retail outlets like Sears, Macy's and so on every generation tastes for that industry changes over time if they can't evolve to the changing market they go under. Hobbies are like that Lionel still around because they evolve to the changing market I'm a millennial I got my first train set when I was seven. I started buying model trains like crazy and play with them almost everyday today I'm older 27 and I don't really buy, or play with my model trains and my collection shrank to more manageable because I'm a working man my number of hobbies grew so on. Also lets not forget model trains or any form of hobby cost money for that hobby also less people especially my generation we can't afford it like that the generation before us. So hobbies are taking a back seat and so we can focus on trying to stay alive with the money we make if any. I hope this brings lite to those to who read this comment the floor is open for discussion |
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| Author: | PCook [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
Real Median Household Income in the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household ... u_2014.png Inflation rate figured using the old methods of measurement: http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_da ... ion-charts PC |
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| Author: | wm7545 [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
I don't think there's a decline...just look at the mountain of youtube channels that are run by railfans. Look at the endless pile of young fans on Facebook interest groups. I don't think there is much of a decline, but rather a shift in how the hobby is enjoyed. More of the younger buffs are probably more inclined to play train-simulator on their computer than go and volunteer at their local rr museum, if there is such a thing. I think the way we enjoy the hobby is changing, and preservation isn't always top of the list. And don't forget how many people would rather photograph something like NKP 765 than volunteer their time or buy tickets to keep it running. My 2 cents... |
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| Author: | fairmontdave [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
Yep, I think the photography comment is on-the-mark. I can't recount how many times we've seen photographers who set up and shoot the train, then they disappear and don't ride. And wedding parties who show up and want to pose on the equipment (when they think no one is around........) Very reluctant to support the very thing they're interested in. (On the other hand, the photographers who do charter and ride the train, are very welcome!) And the modeling people and the preservation people are in two different worlds. I have several friends who are avid modelers and have extensive home or garden railways, and they have never been out to the shortline, once, even though they've been invited many times...... |
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| Author: | Dave [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
The difference between having sex and viewing a digital version of it should be enough to encourage teens to put their cel phones down for a bit now and again.... so how do we make what we do sexier? Provide experiences rather than rusty dusty stuff and a book on the wall? Tell an interesting story through living it along with our visitors? If we provide experiences that bring people in, grab their attention and engage them physically, mentally and emotionally in real life it is so much more vivid than as passive viewing of a rendering of it we can't help but win. This requires reimagining who we are, what we provide and how we prioritize our efforts and resources - but since we're failing by gradual attrition anyhow, what do we have to lose? You can't blame them for finding meaning in fantasy when reality is pretty bleak for most of us right now. |
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| Author: | Heavenrich [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
J3a-614 wrote: OK, you respond, but interest is also declining in cars and planes from an enthusiast standpoint!. Anyone who thinks interest in cars is declining hasn't been to the auto show at Cobo Hall in Detroit or tried to drive Woodward Ave during the dream cruise !!!!! of course if it's on the internet it has to be true or does it ????? Bob H |
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| Author: | Dougvv [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
Hi, I will repeat an idea or concept I have had for about 20 years. I am presenting here as an outline - not as a finished project roadmap. 1) pull the youngest in to railroad exposure with Thomas the Tank Engine. 2) Have Lego or Brio (sp?) play sets available as a growth path to towards hands on. These seem to go over well at some rail swap shows. 3) Have a Lionel as the next step to up - electric models. 4) Have a series of seminars for those wanting to see the tie-ins between the Steam locomotive display nearby and the toy and early electric stage to keep interest engauged. 5) Have a model railroad (5 x 9) for the next step. The helps them learn about conductors, brakemen, firemen, engineers. Have a small seminar where they can run one of the electric trains with the crew and working signals on the layout and in the cab. Seeing how trains meet and pass each other. HANDS ON. 6) Have a medium sized club layout with external connection for adding N-Track or NMRA, or Free-mo modules so if the person is still interested but does not have room for much more than a small module, they can be taught how to make a module and see it actually part of a larger layout and work. 7) Have a construction night where modules, buildings, bridges, trees etc can be learned. A layout needs people understand carpentry, wiring, electronics, maybe interfacing a computer to a model railroad, how to draw plans and even learning how to make a kit or scratch build a building. Here the 40' N scale box car can be set next to a full sized box car. 8) show how train orders and switch lists work. 9) if the person who grew up all or this and wants to go farther, show them how a metal shop works and how to build or rebuild items for the full sized equipment. The details presented in items 1-9 are not magical. It is food for thought. Rebuilding am automobile to making a working car was big in the 1960s and 1970s. The basics just got more complex with today's autos with many computers in it. If anyone has tried this approach or something similar, I'd love to hear about it. If it could be arranged to be a college technical course, there may be even more incentive to stay with it. The Friends of the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic moves a piece or to of equipment to be restored to Colorado Springs for the railroad. Colorado Springs is a lot bigger than either Chama, NM or Antonito, CO. If your museum is in an out of the way place, a branch facility in a nearby big city might work. Not everyone will stick it out but some will and those are the ones needed to help out the museum's future. FWIW Doug vV |
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| Author: | scarabbrian [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
This is something I've thought about quite a bit, and I have a different opinion than any other I've seen when this thread comes up. First off, I am the "younger" generation that isn't necessarily taking up after the generation that is dying off. I'm 33, I have free time, mechanical skills, disposable income: I'm who museums should be adding as members, yet I've found volunteering difficult. As well as having an interest in trains, I also have other hobbies including restoration and building of motorcycles, and I occasionally travel around the southeast playing in a few bands. The reason I mention the other hobbies is that I see how people in other hobbies conduct themselves and people who are into trains are very different from the others. While the people in the motorcycle world and the musicians I work with are very welcoming, helpful, and inclusive, I've had the exact opposite experience with anything train related. For all of the talk of places needing volunteers, I've found it's extremely hard to actually volunteer. If you don't fit into the click a museum has going, you're not welcome. Train people are exceedingly mistrustful of anyone they don't already know. Arrogance is a common trait, and very few people will listen to anyone about anything. There is no equivalent to TrainOrders in any of the other hobbies I'm into because people don't sit around, wallow in their paranoia, and complain the same way train people do. Also common in the train world that is non-existent in my other hobbies is the constant attempt to monetize every, single, little, thing. People don't want to share or pass on information. My experience is they'd rather die with knowledge than pass up the chance to make a dollar. I've asked people paint to thinner ratios and just gotten replies that they'll paint that for me for $200. That attitude is extremely off putting, and just makes me rather spend more of my time and money on my other hobbies. I know I'm not alone with this opinion either: I have friends who no longer volunteer at museums or join clubs talk about this all the time. I'm don't have a solution for this, and I don't think there really is one. People are the way they are, and for whatever reason rail hobbies seem to attract crotchety people. |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
As others have mentioned, Railfanning is not in decline. Just check YouTube and Facebook for proof of that. Model Railroading is in decline, especially Lionel and other tinplate. Why? Simple, the old guys that enjoy it are passing away, or at best moving to retirement homes that don't have room for a layout. This isn't just my opinion. Check prices on vintage model trains and you'll see they've declined significantly. 20 years ago, people my father's age were buying the train sets they had, or more often wished they'd had, as a kid. That generation is getting smaller by the day, and so is the demand. Meanwhile, on the opposite end of the spectrum, most of today's 20-somethings can't afford a place big enough for a train set. If anything, they use one of the train simulator programs to get a far more realistic experience that takes up no space and costs very little compared to a typical model railroad. HO seems to be doing well, and the advent of DCC and other computer interfaces has definitely helped raise interest among younger kids. However, even so, the days when a Tyco train set was the Christmas present nearly every boy wanted are long gone. |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline of Rail Related Hobbies? |
Further evidence of how the hobby has already changed. Remember when each issue of Model Railroader had a centerfold? Not a naked lady, but rather a very detailed drawing of a locomotive that you could use for scratchbuilding or super detailing your model? (I recall getting teased about those "centerfolds" in Junior High) Today, the majority of stuff is ready to run, or at best "shake the box" kits. (i.e. You only need to shake the box and it's done. Typically install trucks and couplers, and a few details.) The days of guys laboriously hand crafting a steam locomotive model are pretty much gone with a few rare exceptions. |
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| Author: | NH0401 [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline? |
PCook wrote: Real Median Household Income in the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household ... u_2014.png Inflation rate figured using the old methods of measurement: http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_da ... ion-charts PC Model railroading (either scale or tinplate) appears to have priced itself out of the realm of kids' toys. Three hundred dollar HO diesels and twenty five dollar freight cars appear to be the province of upper middle class adults-or employed young adults who live with their parents and generate a high degree of disposable incomes. Case in point: I saw a photo of a fleet of 10 ! NYC C-430's (same size fleet as the prototype)on someones' layout. By my analysis, close to three thousand bucks worth of diesels. I inquired...and the guy told me this 'Ah, I have a job...I live in my moms' attic...and I spent all my cash on myself.' Priorities... Dave |
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| Author: | Randy Gustafson [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Decline of Rail Related Hobbies? |
Well, definitely changing, in turmoil at least. But pretty much everybody here has their own story, and a lot of us here begin with some personal interaction story with somebody involved with the railroad industry when we were teenagers or even younger. Maybe we rode a locomotive with the crew. Maybe we had a relative. Maybe it was a friendly station agent. But in some way, you got 'inside' to get an escorted look and were fascinated. As for me, in college I hung around a manned tower, wrapped up flimsies, set up routes, learned all I could from the employees. Hooked. That, my friends, has changed drastically. Think about it. Most railroad employees today would be instantly dismissed for any kind of similar 'interaction' with interested kids or teenagers. Even set foot on the property and you're under suspicion now. It's not just railroads - remember when it was "OK" to look in an airplane cockpit and talk to the Captain? It's a different world today. The only way any of that can be 'preserved' is via operating museums and excursion railroads and the people they have, with a varying degree of social interaction and sympathy. But, many, if not most, of us here are in positions to think about that, and actually do something about that. We have to admit at least to ourselves that the railroad industry itself is not exactly known as a haven for those with social graces, but those 'dumb kids' are rather critical. The actual industry has really done about all they can to regard all non-employees as trespassers, consider passenger trains a nuisance, and generally envy pipelines where everything is underground out of sight. It's pretty much up to us, like it or not, to allow any of that natural interest to find a productive and safe outlet, as the industry itself has far fewer people, locations, and opportunities to ever come in contact. |
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