Good Afternoon, I have had a long standing fascination with anything Milw ever since I learned of the EP2 electrics many moons ago.

In doing research I have run across the different variations of the Beaver Tail observation cars. http://trainweb.org/hiawatha/Mitchell.jpg In doing research on the different Beaver Tail designs I ran across some information suggesting the frames of these cars were recycled into Milw baggage cars.

If one with deep pockets wanted to rebuild a authentic 3rd generation Milw Beaver Tail observation car is there any surviving Milw baggage cars with the vary unique trucks that the Beaver Tail Cars used?

Surely the lose of a surviving baggage car could be justified to have a Beaver Tail observation car for excursion train service.

Robert

They were converted to mail storage cars.

Beaver-Tail parlor-observation Earling was converted to mail storage car #1959 in 1952. It is now part of the fleet of cars used with MILW 261.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/33672589@ ... 8000178846

Others were converted as well, but I don't have info on them handy.

If someone had that much passion for the MILW and deep pockets to match, I think there better ways to spend money than convert a storage car into a reproduction Beaver Tail observation car.

Paul

Paul Krueger
Seattle, WA

Hey while your at it why don't you check out these two MLW Baggage RPOs on Ozark Railcar. They don't appear to have similar trucks in mind but are relatively sold cheap compared to any other car that may be found. Note BigBoy that such a re-build would cost you millions and would need extensive labor let alone time to facilitate such a project.
Its best leaving this a dream for the moment as they're are many other MLW relics that could better see preservation than a Beavertail re-creation not to discourage you from trying.

http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/det ... 05-REDUCED

http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/det ... 3--REDUCED

The reason I ask is because did not two Milw and one Rock Island coach just get scrapped that had nothing major wrong with them???

Seems there is a couple of Milw Baggage cars in danger of scrapping right now. Including what amounts to basically a source of parts and possible trucks. Unless these wrecks are scrapped now? https://www.flickr.com/photos/33672589@N08/sets/72157627483267845/

Robert

Robert -

Seems like an interesting idea. And, according to Mr. Krueger's post, at least one of the ex-Beaver Tail obs cars (now MILW baggage car #1959) still exists. I too have always liked those particular Beaver Tail observation cars. Perhaps the first step would be to see if someone could work out:

1. Whether it could even be done.

2. If so, what the cost would be.

This might even be something where a "cosmetic replication" (no interior work) might be worth the trouble. At least there seems to be something to start with, as opposed say, to a PRR T1 replication which would have to begin from scratch.

Good Luck!

Les

Robert -

Seems like an interesting idea. And, according to Mr. Krueger's post, at least one of the ex-Beaver Tail obs cars (now MILW baggage car #1959) still exists. I too have always liked those particular Beaver Tail observation cars. Perhaps the first step would be to see if someone could work out:

1. Whether it could even be done.

2. If so, what the cost would be.

This might even be something where a "cosmetic replication" (no interior work) might be worth the trouble. At least there seems to be something to start with, as opposed say, to a PRR T1 replication which would have to begin from scratch.

Good Luck!

Les[/quote]

Les, The Milw car 1959 mentioned is a tool car and machine shop for Milw 261.

As Ross Rowland has said before about steam locomotives, "With enough time and money you could build a brand new one if you wanted to."

The British have had some success with building new build locomotives. Most of them being steam locomotives. But, There is a couple of diesel projects underway in various states of completion or at least planning. Right now the latest one is a Class 25 Hydraulic new build that just got a website up and going.

A passenger car should in theory be less of a hassle than building a locomotive. But, the cost is very high.

First one has to ask whether or not any original engineering documents are still available? Then one has to hire a structural engineer which would be required. Then to meet FRA and Amtrak regulations and rewiring with all the power equipment for the 480 Volt HEP supply. The interior is not impossible as reproduction of antique vehicles are routinely done in the classic car world.

A group or organization would need to be setup for the actual rising of funds and materials and to handle all the legal issues, etc.

I currently live as bout as far from Milw territory as possible right now. I am in the land of the Southern, N&W, Seaboard Coast Line, Etc.

A Beaver Tail is still a interesting idea because there is nothing even close to it operating any place in the world today.

Yes, For less trouble the restoration of Milw "Coffee Creek" might be more worth while project since the car is stored outside and in rough shape.

Robert

This Anglophile begs to differ.
http://www.rvp-ltd.org.uk/news.php?y=2009 (halfway down the page)




http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... sp?Ref=950
http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... sp?Ref=951

Robert -

I was aware of that from Mr. Krueger's photo reference. Yes, part of the cost of such a project would be the MILW 261 groups agreement to move their stuff into another ex-Milwaukee Road baggage car. They certainly are aware of the history of #1959 as it carries the cars original Beaver Tail name "Earling" and its road number includes the 1938 built date! Sure, it would be better if one of the other 3 cars from 1938 were still around, but my guess is that they aren't. Replicating the car from scratch is NOT the same, in my estimation at least, as being able to use the original car by putting the windows back in and adding a rebuilt rear end. But hey, this was your idea, not mine. I just thought it had some merit since I was completely surprised that one of the 1938 cars still existed, even in this heavily modified form.

Les

Les, If the 1959 was able to be purchased for conversion then yes, Reworking the car body and reinstalling the windows and building a new end would be the best option.

I am just a stickler for detail and would want the car to be a pure milw build quality as possible.

For the British car above. I never knew that car existed. I remember seeing a rounded end observation car in a German steam documentary. But, I have never seen or heard of that British built Beaver Tail.

Robert

1938 MILW Beaver Tail dispositions per Hiawatha - Nothing Faster on Rails (Milwaukee Shops Inc. 2014):

Earling - to Storage car #1959 11/1952 - Retired 12/1971 - to work car 981394
Merrill - to Storage car #1960 11/1952 - Scrapped 10/1969
Miller - sold for scrap 5/1961
Mitchell - sold for scrap 5/1961

As to the 1938 trucks mentioned in the original post - these were fairly conventional drop-equalizer inside swing hanger trucks with coil springs (MILW drawing A-2721). Slab equalizers replaced the I-beam style on some 1938 cars in 1942. The only peculiarity in the trucks was the Milwaukee's preference for truck-mounted generators instead of the body-mounted ones used almost universally elsewhere. The 1942 cars themselves had very unusual trucks never before or since used. Whether the original-style trucks stayed with the cars through their various rebuildings is impossible to determine except from the photographic record.

The cars themselves were modified at least thrice - once for the 1942 edition of the Hiawathas, once in 1945-46, and finally (Earling and Merrill) for conversion to Storage cars. Miller and Mitchell were also rebuilt in 1941 to add a drawing room when the second parlor car with same was removed from the Morning Hiawatha west of Milwaukee. The other modifications were made to add/remove skirting and side ribs to make all the equipment in the train look the same.

The 1938 cars were the last built with the tapered carbody - by 1942 the AAR had adopted a standard streamlined carbody cross-section with straight side sheets down to the side sill.

Exactly! Obviously it IS possible. We need only look to the recent Lincoln Funeral Car replica for proof that with enough time and effort you can do just about anything.

The real question is whether or not it's worthwhile. What would the cost be? What would be involved with certifying it for mainline operation (if that is the goal)? What's Amtrak going to say when you call them to inspect it and they ask who made it? Would you be spending millions on engineering and certification? Would a "one off" replica still be held to all the same standards as any other new passenger coach?

If the goal is simply a "cosmetic" restoration, as was mentioned, then what purpose does that serve? Could you take same amount of money, build a large scale live steam replica, put that in the museum and then spend the remaining money on helping the museum stay in operation and/or restoring an existing MILW loco or coach of your choice?

What is the final goal for this project?

The goal was a feasibility study of rebuilding a replica of the third and final version of the beaver tail for certification and spot hire for steam or diesel excursions.

Maybe a more worth while project would be to rebuild the Union Pacific dome car Moon Glow.

Or the Milw Coffee Creek.

Robert

Well, the approach the English folks seem to have taken would probably be the most feasible. Find a coach that is reasonably appropriate, and then modify the end as needed to create the Beaver Tail.

However " spot hire for steam or diesel excursions" would seem to be a rather difficult way to make a return on your investment. It's not exactly a lucrative business from my understanding.

That's why I also mentioned Amtrak certification. Seems to me that if you have any chance at all of making this happen, it would also include using it as a private car on Amtrak. Of course the problem with that is that they have no sleeping accommodations, so you'd need to pair up with another car to do anything other than day trips.

Ummmmmm, NO............ both cars I brought to this thread were original LNER "Beavertail" observations, restored/being restored to some semblance of their former glory. Not "replicas."

As a sid enote, I do not think the 261 group still uses the Earling as their on the road tool car. I seem to remember that the stated reason was some difficultly in making in Amtrak compliant.