A live steam model of a Pennsylvania 4-4-0 at the Henry Ford Museum has a true Russia Iron jacket.
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| Looking for Russia Iron Resources https://rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38258 |
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| Author: | stephenpiwowarski [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
Hi Everyone, As some of you know WW&F locomotive 9 at the Wiscasset, Waterville, and Farmington Railway Museum is being restored with a Russia Iron boiler jacket which replicates the jacket it was built with and wore in service. To help people better understand what Russia Iron is and appreciate it's significance I am collecting information for an exhibit focused on Russia Iron. (eventually part of a larger exhibit on the restoration of #9 and the original construction) I am looking for documents and resources related to the production and sale of Russia Iron. So far I have consulted numerous online resources along with John Percy's book on Russian Sheet Iron and an ad from the 1930 Locomotive Cyclopedia which mentions a Russia Iron-like product produced by ARMCO. Documents that I am looking for specifically include: -advertisements for Russia Iron from either a Russian Ironworks or an American distributor. -ordering information from American locomotive builders for quantities of Russia Iron -descriptions of the desirable qualities of Russia Iron from Builders and railway employees. -Samples of Russia Iron -Other useful documentation I am not in need of photographs as there are already many available and in our collection. Please share helpful information, artifacts, resources, and suggestions. You can get in touch with me either here on he forum, via PM, or via email at spwoodwinds(at)gmail.com Thanks very much, Steve Piwowarski |
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| Author: | NYCRRson [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
Hi Steve, I restored a 1919 Plymouth Gasoline powered loco a few years back. We got copies of the original manufacturer's drawing for the "engine hood". It called for a wooden frame covered with "sheet iron". It did not mention the nationality of the sheet iron. I could not find a modern source for sheet iron in the year 2005. I used "galvanneal" (TM) which is a paintable version of galvanized steel. I wrapped this over modern pressure treated lumber to create a moisture resistant (no rust in the wood/metal interface) assembly. One advantage of sheet iron is that it creates a "skin" of black oxides that does not rust much. This feature makes "sheet iron" or galvanized steel uniquely suitable for wood/metal interfaces. The galvanneal allowed me to paint the outside surfaces and hope that the paint would stay attached. If you find a source of sheet iron or Russia Iron please post it here. Thanks, KevinK |
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| Author: | stephenpiwowarski [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
Hi Kevin, To clarify "Russia Iron" is the common name for a type of sheet Iron produced during the 19th and early 20th centuries in the ironmaking region surrounding the Ural Mountains of Russia. In Russia lowers grades were used in roofing, but it was extensively imported to the United States for use in stove and stove pipe construction and the jacketing of locomotive boilers as well as stationary and marine engines. It differs from typical sheet iron in several ways: -it is produced using a different process from typical sheet iron as detailed in Percy's book -the differing production process results in a sheet that is coated in a thick black oxide that is not only rust resistant, but also a mirror-like finish, highly reflective, and attractive. Russia Iron was used extensively at the turn of the last century because the paints of the era could not handle the high temperature environment well. As for standard iron sheets, they are available from a source in England. (http://pureiron.com/) In fact these sheets served as the basis for our reproduction of Russia Iron. Regards, Stephen |
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| Author: | David Johnston [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
Kyle Wyatt at the California State Railroad in Sacramento researched Russian Iron extensively many years ago. I believe that he was to the point that the University of California Department of Metallurgy was going to start a research project on how to duplicate it. I believe that effort died due to the cost. I know he has samples. The color is a metallic blue to purple. You may want to contact him for more information. |
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| Author: | Randy Hees [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
I have a 12" diameter piece... We have a series of articles, some by Kyle at Pacificng.org (this is a site I share with a couple of friends, covering issues of very western narrow gauge history...) http://www.pacificng.com/template.php?p ... /index.htm Randy |
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| Author: | Overmod [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
There was a significant thread on "Russia Iron for Locomotive Boilers" on the Trains Magazine forum (in "Steam and Preservation") earlier this year. |
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| Author: | Chris Salmonson [ Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:13 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources | ||
A live steam model of a Pennsylvania 4-4-0 at the Henry Ford Museum has a true Russia Iron jacket.
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| Author: | Finderskeepers [ Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
Dec. 1, 1888 The Engineering and Mining Journal. 461-462 MANUFACTURE OF RUSSIAN SHEET IRON.* There appears to be much misunderstanding in reference to the manufacture of sheet iron in Russia, and questions are frequently asked the writer: "What are the secrets connected with it?" "How is it made?" "Could admission be obtained to the iron works in the Urals, where this iron is made?" It is difficult to understand why such questions should be asked by persons versed in the literature of iron and steel, for Dr. Percy wrote a very excellent and accurate monograph on the subject a number of years ago. Not having had the opportunity of personally visiting the Russian iron works in the Urals, Dr. Percy's paper was compiled from data furnished him by a number of persons who visited these sheet iron works. Since it has been my good fortune to have the opportunity of seeing some of these works in the Urals but a short time ago, I will, at the risk of telling an old story, briefly describe the process of manufacture as I saw it. The ores used for the manufacture of this iron are mostly from the celebrated mines of Maloblagodatj, and average about the following chemical composition: Metallic iron 60 per cent, silica 5 per cent, phosphorus from 0.15 to 0.06 per cent. The ore is generally smelted into coal pig-iron and converted into malleable iron by puddling or by a Franche-ComtŽ hearth. Frequently, however, the malleable iron is made directly from the ore in various kinds of bloomaries. The blooms or billets thus obtained are rolled into bars 6 inches wide, 1/4" inch thick, and 30 inches in length. These bars are assorted, the inferior ones "piled" re-rolled whilst the others are carefully heated to redness and cross-rolled into sheets about 30 inches square, requiring from eight to ten passes through the rolls. These sheets are twice again heated to redness and rolled in sets of three each, care being taken that every sheet before being passed through the rolls is brushed off with a wet broom made of fir, and at the same time that powdered charcoal is dexterously sprinkled between the sheets. Ten passes are thus made, and the resulting sheets trimmed to a standard size of 25 by 56 inches. After being assorted and the defective ones thrown out, each sheet is wetted with water, dusted with charcoal powder and dried. They are then made into packets containing from 60 to 100, and bound up with the waste sheets. The packets are placed one at a time, with a log of wood at each of the four sides in a nearly air-tight chamber, and carefully annealed for five or six hours. When this has been completed the packet is removed and hammered with a trip hammer weighing about a ton, the area of its striking surface being about 6 by 14 inches. The face of the hammer is made of this somewhat unusual shape in order to secure a wavey appearance on the surface of the packet. After the packet has received ninety blows equally distributed over its surface it is reheated and the hammering repeated in the same manner. Some time after the first hammering the packet is broken and the sheets wetted with a mop to harden the surface. After the second hammering the packet is broken, the sheets examined to ascertain if any are welded together, and completely finished cold sheets are placed alternately between those of the packet, thus making a large packet of from 140 to 200 sheets. It is supposed that the interposition of these cold sheets produces the peculiar greenish color that the finished sheets posses on cooling. This large packet is then given what is known as the finishing or polishing hammering. For this purpose the trip hammer used has a larger face than the others, having an area about 17 by 21 inches. When the hammering has been properly done, the packet has received 60 blows equally distributed, and the sheets should have a perfectly smooth, mirror-like surface. The packet is now broken before cooling, each sheet cleaned with a wet fir broom to remove the remaining charcoal powder, carefully inspected, an the good sheets stood on their edges in vertical racks to cool. These sheets are trimmed to regulation size (28 by 56 inches) and assorted into Nos. 1, 2, 3, according to their appearance, and again assorted according to weight, which varies from 10 to 12 lbs. per sheet. The quality varies according to color, and freedom from flaws or spots. A first-class sheet must be without the slightest flaw and a peculiar metallic gray color, and on bending a number of times with the fingers, very little or no scale is separated, as in the case of ordinary sheet iron. The peculiar property of Russian sheet iron is the beautiful polished coating of oxides ("glanz") which it possesses. If there is any secret in the process, it probably lies in the "trick" of giving this polish. As far as I was able to judge, from personal observation and conversation with the Russian iron masters, the excellence of this sheet iron appeared to be due to no secret, but to a variety of conditions peculiar to and nearly always present in the Russian iron works of the Urals. Besides the few particulars already noted in the above description of this process, it should be borne in mind that the iron ores of the Urals are particularly pure, and that the fuel used is exclusively charcoal and wood. Another, and equally as important consideration, lies in the fact that this same process of manufacturing sheet iron has been carried on in the Urals for the last hundred years. As a consequence, the workmen have acquired a peculiar skill, the want of which has made attempts to manufacture equally as good iron outside of Russia generally less successful. It is difficult to understand what effect the use of charcoal powder between the sheets as they are rolled and hammered has upon the quality. It is equally as difficult to understand the effect of the interposition of the cold finished sheets upon the production of the polished coating of oxide. The Russian iron master seem to attribute the excellence of their product more to this peculiar treatment than to any other cause. One thing is quite certain, there is no secret about the process, and if the Russian sheet iron is so much superior to any other, it is due to the combination causes already indicated. *Paper by F. Lynwood Garrison, Journal of the U.S. Association of Charcoal Iron Workers. --------------------- |
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| Author: | Loco112 [ Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
The old Russian iron was a mass manufactured commodity and can not be duplicated without spending fortunes. Stainless sheet is the thing to use, it insulates probably as well also. Maybe you can figure out some kind of chemical colorization for it. Paint it if all else fails. I know, painted simulated Russian iron sounds horrible, but it is great boiler wrapping material. I once got a huge quantity of SS sheet for free and It has held paint for 15 years without any issue. Cheap, better, easy to find, just the wrong color. Hope this is positive for the post. |
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| Author: | stephenpiwowarski [ Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
Thank you all for your input. It has been enlightening and this has certainly been an interesting thread so far. I am not so much cocerned with the production process, as we have read the majority of materials dealing with this. The WW&F has developed, with the input of several others, has developed an effective process for replicating Russia Iron. The process begins with Iron sheets which are then polished to a mirror finish. The next step in the process is applying bluing to the entire sheet. Our sheets are halfway through the process and will be getting blued this coming week. We are excited to see the final product! Now that the production process is underway, I am very interested in collecting original documents or copies of original advertisements and documents related to the sale, purchase, and use of Russia Iron by locomotive companies and Railways for our exhibit. Thanks, Steve Piwowarski |
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| Author: | elecuyer [ Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
Also, as part of the conditions set forth by the NRHS grant that partially funded this Russia Iron jacket for WW&F #9, we will be releasing a document explaining the entire process used, and showing the results. We have also collected samples of other materials (other than iron, such as stainless steel) that has been subjected to the same bluing process that is occurring right now. We are extremely optimistic that we will now have a way to replicate Russia Iron without resorting to paint or other less-than-satisfactory methods. Stay tuned - we're really excited to see (and share) the results with the broader preservation community. |
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| Author: | philip.marshall [ Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
Hi Steve, I don't have any new information to offer on Russia iron, but I want to say I'm really enjoying this discussion and look forward to seeing both the finished boiler jacket on No. 9 and the display you're preparing! Hoping to talk more about this topic in person sometime this summer, -Philip Marshall |
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| Author: | stephenpiwowarski [ Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
Hello All, I erroneously mentioned the wrong source of sheet iron. The source was: http://pureiron.com. I've edited the original post as well. Regards, Steve Piwowarski |
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| Author: | Randy Hees [ Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
The defining feature of Russian iron was the coating. This was a thick carbon based coating that would resist rust if kept oiled. It was highly reflective, almost enamel like. I had a piece inspected by a physicist who told me it was an "interference coating" defined by her as "reflecting one wave length of light" to explain why it looked like it did. There was a similar product, called American iron, a copy of Russia iron, identifiable because it was made with rollers and lacks the planishing or hammer marks that Russian iron has. By the 1880’s American iron was much more common, and Baldwin was calling the product “planished iron” on specification sheets. While there are rumors that the Russians made a run of Russian iron after WWII to restore the Hermatage (it was roofed with Russian iron) no other preservation project has reproduced or tried to reproduce it, instead using a paint or “pickle” coating that looked like Russian iron. Some have tried gun bluing to replicate the appearance, but it doesn’t have the thickness or reflectivity. The jackets on the locomotives at CSRM, NSRM as well as on Eureka are all painted coatings on plain iron jackets. Chris DeWitt (NSRM) would be the expert on these (paint) coatings. There is something of a debate about what color it was… with lots of people saying blue (it wasn't blue). All the samples I have seen have been a medium dark grey… Supposedly export controls included screening for color. Be careful to question the information you get. This is a subject with more bad information than good. Modelers have polluted the information pool. Unless you are trying to recreate the “real” coating, the composition of the iron/steel sheet isn’t that important (to the appearance, but stainless steel lasts better as a metal boiler jacket.) and if you are trying to replicate it the sheet iron is according to traditional stories very important. Simply using old style iron isn’t specific enough. Randy |
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| Author: | Overmod [ Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources |
I'd expect it to be medium to dark gray, possibly with slight mottling of the color, with an iridescent sheen (perhaps similar to oil on water) depending on how the light hits it. It is not likely to be 'blue'. Blue (well, heat blue) is an interference coating of oxide (I believe this is the same 'magnetite' that forms the protective layer in boilers, Fe2O3) that is built up by heat; it is a conversion of the metal surface itself, and not something that depends on added carbon. I am familiar with this from watchmaking (where I use a tray of silver sand over a burner to get the desired even heat and lack of oil or air-blocking contact that is needed for a good blue). There are tables that correlate the color to the temperature of the part - I am personally fond of the 'purple' that was used on the hands of some good Illinois railroad watches. Bluing large sheets probably requires a controlled temperature and rapid cessation of heating when the desired oxide color has been achieved. There are chemical (wet and fume) bluing processes that build up similar layers; there is also case-hardening/nitriding (which puts elements into the surface of the metal, effectively 'prestressing' it). This produces colors but not usually in a single or consistent color. Cold bluing isn't the same thing as either of these, and in my opinion is a very poor substitute. (Don't get me started on Parkerizing, or phosphate surface finishes!) |
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