I came in from making a run to the office this morning, poured a beverage, and started grazing YouTube for video of the Nickel Plate 765 running around.

It didn't take me long to come across multiple entries by photographers that were irritated that their video shots were disturbed by the general populace.

It also didn't take me long to come across multiple entries by the general public that were full of smiles, laughter, and excitement as the 765 thundered into view.

I completely understand both sides of this coin.

I enjoy shooting pictures of many things...almost always these things aren't trains. I live in NYC and there are so many pictures to be shot...it's crazy! I accept that many times people are going to filter in/out of my shots. People do not step into camera view on purpose...often they just don't understand they are straying into a shot or their field of vision is such they don't know.

I enjoy watching trains, particularly steam powered trains. The most important part of this exercise is to be close enough to be moved by their power, grace, sound, and noise. I know that I have probably interrupted many photographers...and this is where I step on a foot or two or three...

...photogs...the steam engines aren't restored for your pleasure.

Steam engines are restored to remind and recall a different place and time in history. Steam engines are running because each company or organization understands that it is a good thing to show the public their magic. Every man, woman, and child that experiences watching a steam engine run live, and in person, is another member of the general public that may become a ticket buyer, volunteer, or future railroad professional.

Photography is certainly part of a hobby....the hobby...but being a photog doesn't give you license to treat others poorly.

Without the smiling families standing trackside, I doubt the railroads would bother putting on such great shows for us all.

It takes two to make it all balance out.

Amen! I can't stand the sense of entitlement some railfans seem to get. Some people take this hobby way too seriously!

Photography is certainly part of a hobby....the hobby...but being a photog doesn't give you license to treat others poorly.

Well said IC 382.

Simple inexperience, aggravated no doubt by steadily increasing (but now diminishing, thanks to NS) lack of opportunity to gain necessary experience. We have a whole generation out there that hasn't really had the opportunity to "chase steam" moving faster than 15 mph since 1994.

If you ever did this more than once, you very quickly learned that if you really, REALLY want a people-interference-free video, you HAVE to take the occasionally-Herculean effort to seek out a location or angle where people won't walk in front of your photo--or, for that matter, where they won't come up to you and say "What'cha doing?" as the video is rolling, or where you won't have legions of folks punctuating your vision by waving cell phones in your way or shouting "Holy sh**!" or "Whoo-HOO!!! YEAH, MAN!!!! WHOOOOO!!" as your subject approaches.

Back in the days when excursions were more predictable and frequent (NS in the 1980s), it was not unusual for the "veterans" to do a "dry run" over the route a week in advance and find out-of-the-way locations away from the public. With tools such as Google and Bing Maps and Street View/Bird's Eye View, it's far easier than ever to do so from home. We didn't HAVE these in 1992--just DeLorme Atlases or topographic maps.

And heaven knows, I've stood my ground at one spot for 20-30 minutes waiting for the seemingly-endless throng of folks that are near-sighted enough that they have to examine the valve gear from eight inches away, folks who pose their kids at or on the front of the loco to get a photo, etc. In more than one case, the only way that any of us got a "people-less" 3/4 view of a steamer was a cloudburst or lightning. (I remember one time PRR 1361 was in Bellefonte, Pa. and seemingly half the population of Centre County was taking their time examining 1361 close-up until a thunderous monsoon opened up, and every "civilian" huddled under the eaves of the station. I shouted loudly to the railfans, "FINALLY, A SHOT WITH NO PEOPLE!!" and dashed out into the rain to get said 3/4 shot with the station behind. About 12-15 fans heard me and joined me eagerly once they saw the "method to my madness.")

Simple inexperience, aggravated no doubt by steadily increasing (but now diminishing, thanks to NS) lack of opportunity to gain necessary experience. We have a whole generation out there that hasn't really had the opportunity to "chase steam" moving faster than 15 mph since 1994.

Every avocation has its protocols and unspoken civilities. Its being lost everywhere, not just chasing trains.

I've been a bit a of a gym rat for 30 years, and the degeneration of gym behavior is noticeable. When people actually pull plates off the bar they mix them up (no more fun than pulling off a half a dozen 45's to get that nickel), don't wipe their seat, jump in (when you are clearly just walking to the water fountain) and won't leave equipment when there's a request and an alternative.

Ultimately, its up to the old-timers to instruct the newbies. The other day, I needed a flat bench. There's two and one was occupied by two teenage-girls doing "upright rows" with a seated bench available. I asked them to use the upright bench, and they said "we were here first" (no kidding). I was asking them to move FOUR FEET.

So i dropped the 100 pound dumbbell I was holding and said "i asked nicely", with just enough of a rise to make them wonder what saying "no" would entail. Sometimes, the old cats just have to assert themselves.

I give props to those that put forth the effort to show courtesy and restraint...and allow the general public their excitement. The general public is the reason these trips happen. The general public are the individuals and families that put money in the coffers of the broad range of organizations that help to preserve railroad history.

I know that many people haven't experienced chasing steam locomotives at speed. The venues to participate in a steam locomotive chase have become few and further between than any time since the rise of the diesel. Unfortunately, I can not agree with this being positioned as a right of passage for anyone, for any reason. Railfans have made chasing and photography...almost a contact sport. I applaud the railroads and police for guarding our safety while we enjoy the access we are allowed to view these machines.

Now...I have written many times on this board referencing what I view as poor behavior on many levels by railfans and railroad professionals. I have written about enthusiasts being chastised for being young, ethnic (read anything but white), gay, old, female, non-Christian, etc. I was amazed at the statement made about the 2 teenage girls at the gym. While I believe that young people need to display/engage in respectful behaviors...I also believe that if a stranger made any kind of near verbal threat to another individual...that they are threading on thin ice. The world isn't the place now that it was in 1918, 1941, 1950, or even in 1970. I can remember being told to move by a stranger when I was around 18. Suffice to say...that individual was removed from the facility for badgering me. Adult respect isn't deserved...it has to be earned too. If we adults and/or railfans display poor behavior/manners...then we become no better then disrespectful children. Diversity is what our country is all about...and we all encounter people of all different ages and make-up.

I have a recommendation to railroads to assist us...and to historic preservation organizations...CHARGE US FOR ALL THESE PHOTO OPS. I have never participated in an organized photo event. If I ever wanted too...I would pay for the opportunity to shoot pictures...without the potential for fouling by the general public.

I can proudly say that every time I attend a museum event or stop in for a casual visit...that I make a donation. I can also proudly say that I endeavor to treat any one I come into contact with respect and dignity...even when they most likely don't deserve it.

It's amazing what a little brute force can accomplish, or the possible use of. Superheater, I know of what you speak at the gym. Big, muscled up, old dudes most younger people fear. Id is because they truly respect us or they they know we are older and could care less about wiping them out?

The mere threat of physically harming someone to achieve personal gain is repulsive. I too work out at the gym guys. 5 nights a week...and every night there is someone who is annoying, or loud, or smelly, or whatever. Patience is a virtue.

Frightening a stranger because you can is an absolute joke. I wonder how you would feel if your son or daughter was the object of someone's...other then your's...direction?

How did an opinion get from photography, courtesy, and railroad loving public...to badgering people? The only thing someone would get from taking a swat at a stranger in a public place...is a trip to jail.

t's amazing what a little brute force can accomplish, or the possible use of. Superheater, I know of what you speak at the gym. Big, muscled up, old dudes most younger people fear. Id is because they truly respect us or they they know we are older and could care less about wiping them out?

TX, I think its because they don't realize that we never could resort to force, even if inclined. We have jobs, incomes, positions in the community, wives that would get really miffed if they had to say "you got arrested for a FIGHT at YOUR AGE? "Are you freaking kidding me"?

I'm not sure how you pull rank in a photoline, the few I've seen have been best described as "herding cats" or "a bunch of people all alone in a crowd".

Years ago, we used to joke about "using the people filter."

It was supposed to be .44 caliber.

Never actually saw one in action, though I did one time unwittingly run across an illegal pre-hunting-season target range in pursuit of D&H Alcos...... out West, where you might plausibly make the excuse of rattlesnakes to pack a gun, however......

Yes, they generally are.

The last time I "pulled rank" on a photo excursion was quite a few years ago on a 4449 trip over Stampede. They did a runby and the organizers were arranging everyone behind a fence so we all had a clear shot. Everyone obliged except on dimbulb. Our car host was a very nice young lady, who this joker merrily ignored. After watching her ask nicely, and fairly quietly, several times, I said, quite loudly, something to the effect of "Everyone else has followed her directions, so how about you do it, and do it NOW, so they can start the runby?" Looking a bit sheepish, he got in line with the rest of us. I think about 20 people thanked me later, including the carhost.

So, why don't photographers want people in the photo? Well, some of them hate having any people in the shot, which I certainly don't agree with. Except for a few mass transit systems, trains don't run without people running them. So having people in the scene is perfectly fine with me.

A more reasonable request is to not have anyone, or anything, in the scene that ruins the illusion of a vintage photo. For example, a guy in a Nike jacket and iPod earbuds is going to peg your photo as modern.

Let's be realistic, these days there's really very few ways to get that shot. Even if you hike in to some obscure place on the line, chances are there will be diesel power cut into the consist.

If that's really your goal, the best option is to go on a dedicated photo charter. They're designed with a very small group of people and suitable locations and backgrounds are selected. Of course, with few people your ticket price is going to be a lot more. The train costs about the same to run whether it's hauling 20 or 200, so if you're one of the 20 on an 8 hour photo trip, your ticket will be significantly more than the 2 hour regular runs on the Daisy Picker and West Nowhere.

BTW, this "I don't want people in my photos!" thing isn't unusual. I went to an air show this weekend, with 200,000 of my closest friends. Yes, there were people whining about having other people in their photos of the static displays. I would have preferred clean shots too, but I also realize it's simply not an option.

One more thing to keep in mind. The few really annoying photographers tend to stand out in your memory. I recall a photo line once where some guy threw a (small) rock at somebody in front of him. I think he was trying to get his attention, not do a David and Goliath on him. ;) But along with him, there were 150 others, all being polite and staying in line.

There's a serious flipside to this with still camera shooters.
You're trying to get a shot of a locomotive stopped somewhere, people can clearly see you have a tripod and are focusing, then a family pushes their three kids right up to the pilot and proceeds to stand them there for what seems like an eternity while they get their perfect family shot (which you know nobody will ever likely see), while everyone else (including other family people) have to just stand there and wait. And wait. And wait. And wait. And wait. And wait. And wait. And wait...
Then, the kids just keep standing there! Sometimes, they really honestly think that others want them in their shots, too!
This happened to me in Portland recently when the UP 150th train came to the station. Three families in a row did this, and none of the parents got their kids out of the way of dozens of people with cameras clearly waiting for their kids to clear out of the very center of the shot.
And yes, people sometimes DO walk into your video shot specifically to be there. There was a commercial video of 4449 I used to have that showed parallel running with a McCloud River locomotive, and a tall old guy walks right in front of the camera line, turns and faces them, and points to the engines, so he can get into their shots, spoiling it for everyone, and then leaves only after the shot is over (probably never to be repeated). One of the camera people even picks up a rock and throws it at the guy as he slowly walks away (missing him, of course). I wish I could recall what video it was, but I'd bet anyone else who's seen it would recall it.

I can't believe people would throw things in order to get their picture. Unbelievable!

Why don't you simply ask someone to move? If the train is standing still...simply ask whoever/whatever to stand aside in order for you to take your set of photos.

Again, I must emphasize that these trains are not run for photographers. They are run for everyone to enjoy.

I understand that several regular photographers probably believe they are O.Winston LInk reincarnated...but your digital color photos...probably won't have near the composure, resonance, or complexity of his photography in the long run.

I have to chuckle...about 2 years ago I sent in a set of pictures to railpictures.net. I had snapped various 3/4, head-on, and profile shots of a steam locomotive in operation in Maine. I took the pictures with a throw-away camera...and had the pictures "developed" by Walmart. The powers-that-be at Railpictures.net sent me an email back...saying basically my pictures were a joke...my device for taking them...a joke.

I simply sent them in because I was expressing my like of engine. I understand now that rail fan photographers...many of them...believe themselves to be a "members-only" club. I suppose this could constitute another joke?