Really need to ask this question, as I have been told that there is no money in the restored caboose business. Where this really starts is a few days ago, I was approached after contacting a seller about a Nickle Plate Road 400 Series Bay Window and a Detroit, Toledo and Shore Line Pullman WWII Troop Sleeper for sale. He said that there were already 4 groups working on trying to aquire those 2 specific cars.

He then contacts me and says he has a Chessie System (ex-C&O) C-15C caboose for sale on the same property. He sent along some photos and I have reviewed them as well as did some internet research to see what I could dig up on this specific caboose. One of my good friends is a walking C&O Encyclopedia and gave me the history behind the caboose as being built in March of 1941 delivered as Red, then being painted Yellow, then after being completely overhauled in Grand Rapids, Michigan in June 1970 going to the Blue and finally the Chessie System scheme which she currently resides in.

I am going to inspect the car tomorrow and for the price (less than $5000) with it being a roller bearing caboose I might be quite a bit better off. It still has its wheel driven generator, stove and all accessories. Has some minor rust issues but the Chessie Paint has saved the body quite a bit, needs a COT&S and 2 new windows.

With doing research at some museums of which I do quite a bit of business, I have heard caboose rental figures thrown around for sometime and it seems that the public if they have the chance would rather be in the caboose instead of a coach for the nostalgia. But is that really true? If I was to sink money into making it road worthy again (is equipped with roller bearings making it interchangeable) would it be worth it? Or is it just better belonging to a stationary display or as razor blades.

If its 'worth it' or not depends on your own opinion. Owning a piece of rolling stock can be fun, fulfilling and rewarding (financial and otherwise). It can also be a financial black hole. It's a decision only you can make. Here are some considerations to think about:

1) Money. Cabeese can be had cheaply enough. $5K is actually about average for one in good condition. Roller bearing makes it more enticing.

2) Movement. It sounds like you'd like to move it by rail. That may end up being just as expensive as trucking. First off, it can't have a Duryea under frame. These are prohibited from interchange. (Although fine on a tourist RR). Second, if it's over 50 years old, youll need an FRA waiver which is good for one interline (interchange) move only. Third, the car will need to be air tested. If it passes, good! If not, you may need to exchange the brake valves / cylinder. This costs some dough and if the valve is of the 'AB' type, it'll need to be swapped for an 'ABD' or newer valve. The railroad's car knockers will also want to do an inspection prior to movement.

3) List & Insure. Insurance will run you about $650-$800 per year and the car must be relisted in UMLER. A consortium like RPCA (Rail Passenger Car Alliance) can help with both.

Of course, if you want to move by road, it's a little different. Cranes will run from $3,000 to $6,000 depending on locale and figure the trucking will be about $1,000 plus about $1.50 per mile plus permits for over height/weight/width and a fuel surcharge.

In short, I wouldn't view this as a money making project, but more a labor of love. It's kinda nice having the biggest toy around and if it's used on a shortline or tourist RR, it can help you recoup some of the cost. It's kinda like owning a vintage Corvette or Mustang. It's expensive, but almost everyone who does thinks its quite worth it.

If you have questions, email me at
Russ.Swinnerton(at)TheCRHS.org

Russ

There are also ways to move a caboose without a crane, especially if it's a bay window caboose and is travelling a relatively short distance.

I've seen some heavy equipment movers get creative and roll the caboose on and off of split deck lowboys on it's own wheels. I've also seen equipment raised with car jacks and I beams, then lowered onto a lowboy. It certainly won't work in all situations, but do a bit of research and you may find you have some options.


With cranes running hundreds per hour, and some moves needing two cranes, alternatives can be worthwhile.


Or, if money is no object, call these guys:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 574&nseq=1

Short answer: yes, if you have a reason to save one. No, if you don't. It won't make you much money in the long run, ask at McDonalds.

dave

Thanks for the responces guys. I will continue with the inspection tomorrow and will post photos when I return.

If it will be a one time movement only, an enforcement discretion leter (aka "OTM" letter) from the FRA is appropriate. If it is over 50 years old, you wish to continue to operate it, and it has no other restrictions according the the list in 49 Code of Federal Regulations Part 215.203, you will only need a special approval, which is somewhat easier (and quicker) to get than a waiver. A waiver is only required if the car is newer than 1945 (for glazing) or if you do not want to do Part 224 reflectorization and your host railroad wants to occasionally actually use it in a freight train. The regulation that covers these items is here: 49 CFR 215.203

Steve

Is there no end to the misinformation that is posted on this forum;

(3) Equipped with a Duryea underframe constructed before April 1, 1950, except for a caboose which is operated as the last car in a train.

Misinformation about FRA regs? Who is surprised? Not me.


Keep in mind, you're talking to brokers, in the context of their making money. When they say "there's no money in it" they mean the commissions aren't worth their trouble, and/or the economics of the business are such that you can't make any money "flipping" a caboose - buy it, fix it and resell for net gain.

That has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with its worthiness for preservation. Don't even ask them about a Little Joe.

If your motive is money, there's your answer. Walk away. This is a money pit.

If on the other hand your motivation is "the love of the game" -- then it's up to you. And your wife, LOL!

Also, "groups trying to acquire" is not quite the same thing as actual serious customers with the ability to pay and then move the equipment. Then there's the small matter of having a place to put the equipment, and that is one you need to watch out.



Renting the Caboose to the Museum??? Don't even go there. Any museum worth a damn (i.e. capable of paying) will have had lots of experience with private owners with the aforementioned problem. The owner, of course, wants it all - to retain total control/ownership, but to get free storage out of the deal. So the owner tries to "package" or "spin" it as somehow beneficial to the museum, hence the operating lease agreement. Museums have heard that one too :) A few museums get sucked into it, notably if the private car owner is on their Board (which is illegal by the way, it's called private inurement to insiders.) But in my experience the museum usually regrets it. Even if it's a daily runner, it puts the museum at arm's length for maintaining it, why dump money into an asset you don't own, and volunteers don't want to fix private cars. Just a bad scene all-around. Eventually, the museum says "We're done, get your car outta here" and the private owner says "I can't".

And that isn't pretty. If the museum wrote a good lease (and you signed it, are you nuts?) then you lose the caboose and the museum keeps it. If the museum wrote a bad lease, then you have a lot of awkwardness with a museum that used to be your friend, and finally there you are trying to sell off the unit.

If your car is at a museum, the public perceives that car as being in the museum's stewardship, even if it's not really. If that equipment later moves on down the road and to a bad end ... that is considered to be the museum's fault, and directly impacts their reputation as a steward... which directly impacts donors' willingness to work with them on unrelated projects.

Did I mention most railroad museums do not have interchange to live rail. I suspect your origin location is also landlocked. So you're gonna be on a truck anyway, and the roller bearings scarcely matter.

So you can try, but I wouldn't get my hopes up on a rental.

On to the question of selling it. Maybe. Museums don't have a lot of money but you can ask. That would be a way to get the caboose saved for good. The roller bearings would be a minor asset to the landlocked museums that run critters, as they're a bit easier to start and pull at low speeds. And the Chessie history and paint scheme is a real crowd pleaser.

I'd forgotten about that. Thanks for the reminder!

Thanks Robert, I do appreciate that inside look.

In regards to our inspection of this C&O Caboose, we found the car to have some sidesill rust and well as sidesheet damage and one corner from what appears to be a sideswipe collision. Overall the car has a good body. However with recent rain in the area we were unable to get under the car and inspect the brake valves. Also the cupola window was open just a bit which allows bugs and rain (as it was lightly raining also today as well) into the cupola and the rest of the car. Overall it was nice to see but think it is way out of my area of interest and to fix the problems it would take more than I have at the current time (ie Money pit).

And if there is no money really to be made in this section of the industry, maybe I should refocus my attention into passenger cars and operations.

Poor misguided soul, you think there's money to be made restoring old rail cars and leasing them. I tend to think that it's break even at the very best.

...and yes we can scrap all the cabooses (cabeese?) and make a considerable dent in that 2000 number. Maybe between the cabs and the LIRR commuter cars we could cover it????

But, if you are an operating museum in a major SMSA, there's money to be made with kids birthday party charters in a caboose. The secet is minimal capitalization tiied up in the caboose, so you can concentrate on booking and catering the events.

Sometimes it isn't a railroad car, its a venue.

dave

If Duryea frames were used under other cars, the thinking the car might be in the middle of the train, or head end, you won't want that. CRUNCH!

Note last centurie's trains hauled by mikados, 2-8-0's, and such were shorter, lighter, frames designed as such, its all different now.

You would have to inform the crew moving it or instructions, place at end of train only!

A lot of the Trolleyville cars from cleveland were moved via truck dolly replacing the trucks and the trucks moved separate. Raising a caboose can and will change highway clearances, so a dolly move is smart.

You want to get a caboose, you want to make a use of it, live in it, rent it out cabin like the caboose motel, or throw kiddie parties, adult parties, put all your museum artifacts in it, build a model railroad in it, who knows, get creative.

It's been different for 30 years. Shipping by rail has always been a trail of tears. Ask Illinois Railway Museum how many of their cars have been busted up enroute. Michigan Transit Museum had a North Shore car get bashed up, that's fairly typical anytime you get interurbans with radial couplers in a freight train. Look at this center sill -- and this was not the first time this car had been damaged in transit.



And that is why railroad museums do not like moving by rail, even things which are nominally capable of moving by rail. Insurance doesn't cover "history value" in irreplaceable things.


ALL Trolleyville cars were moved by highway, not a solitary one went out by rail on its own wheels. For equipment of that type, that would be suicide. I don't know how many involved swapping trucks for dollies.

Dollies are a great way to move equipment that is either too heavy or too tall.

However if it's possible, the ideal way to move equipment is, on its own wheels, on a low-boy truck. Silk Road Transport specializes in that type of move for light-medium weight interurbans and streetcars. They do a ton of those moves hauling PCCs from San Francisco to Brookville, PA for restoration. PCCs were heading east during the Trolleyville liquidation, so everything WRM got came on backhauls. Silk Road is also very kind to nonprofit railroad museums.