Bear with me, folks. Still finishing up leftovers from a Real Ale Festival....

Someone brought up the old L&RP magazine. Well, it's possible they didn't realize they brought it up, but they did. Not RyPN, but Locomotive & Railway Preservation.

L&RP encompasses 63 issues, sitting up on my shelf behind me in old Trains Magazine binders.

We could sit here and debate for hours just how much good the old magazine did, but three facts are self-evident:

1) It is not an economically viable endeavor or business model on its own, in spite of the efforts by the former editors to include the best of vintage rail photography (now usurped by Classic Trains) and contemporary photography of preservation (originally done best by Railfan & Railroad Magazine, Trains, PTJ, and others, and now supplied free online at a multitude of sources);

2) Back issues are considered practically worthless in contemporary railfan markets, reflecting the current economy, a transition away from printed matter to online matter, and the glut of printed railfan matter with fewer collecting railfans out ther;

3) The lack of success of the magazine even before the internet could be blamed lies, in part, on the "fragmented" nature of rail preservation: North American railfans are ridiculously ethnocentric and xenophobic, not only to foreign countries but to railroads not in their own backyards; it took decades to bring together the TRAIN and ARM; rail preservation outfits often have horrendous trouble talking with one another no matter how common the goals and equipment may be; etc.

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I would like to propose an online variation of Locomotive & Railway Preservation Magazine. I'm not 100% sure what form this magazine would take, but I would offer the following suggestions:

*Continuation of the "Interchange" forum.
*Continuation of the "Classifieds" sales forum, with possible oversight to distinguish between purely "commercial" and "non-commercial" offerings.
*A "host" location for informational forums on such things as wooden car preservation, management guidance, non-profit operation seminars, essays on fundraising, insurance, etc.--the practical side of preservation. This could even include PDF reprints or Google Books entries--for a fee, if necessary--of relevant articles/publications from L&RP, the NRHS Bulletin, ARM/TRAIN publications, and elsewhere.
*A national, or international, "database" of preserved rail equipment, possibly going as far as even railroad stations and other buildings. Incorporate SteamLocomotive.com/.info, the PNAERC, the Railroad Station Historical Society database of existing structures, maybe even go as far as a historic bridges index.....
*Access to a national index of railroad publications, such as a consolidation of the Index produced by Thomas T. Taber III with the online searchable index produced by Kalmbach.
*cross-indexing with Wikipedia, in part to cross-reference and in part to identify holes in Wikipedia coverage.

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Now, how do we make this a reality? If, indeed, it can?


Here are some of my off-the-cuff ideas:

*Who's in charge? Possibly set up a non-profit, or incorporate its mission under an existing non-profit such as TRAIN/ARM, NRHS, or R&LHS.
Possibly a committee with members drawn from the participating members--TRAIN/ARM, NRHS, R&LHS, Kalmbach, Carstens, Lexington Group...........

*Who pays expenses? How much are we talking? Realistic estimate? Can administration be incorporated into the duties of paid NRHS administration or Kalmbach/Carstens staff, for a fee?

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What else has to be discussed here? What do we need? What visions are unrealistic, or have gone unaddressed?

Good thoughts, Sandy

Why not a real magazine? The world of publishing is changing really fast. The fact is, a lot of people won't even want a paper copy, they'll be happy to take it on their PC, iPad or Kindle. How many people bought the entire back catalog of TRAINS on CD-ROM? Lots.

The way on-demand publishing has gotten, most titles are printed to order nowadays. Dead trees is "just another format" and people who want dead trees are expected to pay for it. For non-celebrity authors, a Kindle book is $2.99, on pulp it's $11.

For a magazine of L&RP's quality, you could certainly get as much as TrainOrders charges. For the e-version. Paper is more of course.

One other thing. L&RP diluted it with a lot of "classic trains" stuff to make it more interesting to modelers and foamers, without whom they couldn't hit their publishing numbers. Boy, that was a lost cause. Screw that. Don't have a split agenda, JUST make it a trade journal for railway preservation. Foamers will still dig it.

All great ideas, Sandy.

And I'd subscribe to an e-version of L&RP...sign me up.

Stephen

I was told not too long ago that the NRHS was seeking preservation related content to enhance their website. Perhaps someone with closer ties to that organization can confirm whether that is presently the case.

PC

Why not get something moving here within the existing framework. RYPN seems to get one article per year these days. There have been a number of amazing articles posted in years past. Why not an all call for article and make this site more than just the interchange.

I'd love to see a printed version of L&RP come back, but I would settle for a good digital tablet experience. "Settle" means I would pay $$$ for it, up to $50 a year or so, for a well edited, reliable and somewhat professional product.

Unfortunately, much of what I am seeing in e-publishing is tantamount to giving a power saw, router and drill to someone who is not a carpenter and asking them to build a hutch --- just having the tools doesn't mean the outcome will be good.


Rob

I would be grateful for an FAQ/Links page on RyPN.org to include links to:

1. Preserved North American Electric Railway database.
2. Steamlocomotive.info
3. The NPS assessments of the Steamtown collection.
4. ARM Recommended Practices
5. Standing links to previous RyPN threads on PRR 1361 and RDG T-1's

Wesley

We used to do that back in the day. Boyd Owens and I were constantly trolling for news briefs while the rest of the volunteer editors were focused on features. Even at the highest point, I think we only had 8-9 folks regularly contributing - and 3/4's of them were the editors or RYPN staff - and the time commitment was crazy.

Most of us burned out quickly due to the time commitment, and I got sick of the insane amount of criticism directed at us (a totally separate issue from the Interchange insanity). When I prattle on about how I am continually dissapointed by the community "earing our own" it comes from first hand experience. Some of the best contributors left the RYPN community for various reasons, and it became even harder to sustain.

Knowiing how organized it was back then, and being one of the folks who gave time and money (albiet nowhere near as much as some others did), I will offer this thought...

I don't know that we adequately acknowldege the men who are keeping the site alive right now. Every character I type into the Interchange has an unspoken debt of gratitude behind it, everytime as a reader I separate the wheat from the chaff I am greatful we have a place like this as an alternative to the blazing flames sprouting from the Dead Goat, Trainorders and Railroad.Net.

Honestly, I only participate in 3 forums now - RYPN, Railfan.net (because there are some great mods leading some of the boards) and the OGR Forum which covers much more than just O gauge trains and is kept in tight check by Allan Miller and Rich Melvin.

I would love to see RYPN grow again, but I think it has to be a team effort, and if some of the Interchange regulars want to do it, we need the rules from a long-gone Asbury Park, NJ biker bar my first band used to play at - leave your colors and weapons at the door and enter as brothers and sisters of all.


Rob
Rob

Nice answer Rob, and one other thing, when you publish an article on the internet you are immediately a target for everyone who has a pet project and thinks it should get a higher priority for your time than anything else you are working on.

And the comment about the arguments and criticism is so true. In a lot of cases the participants don't realize they are arguing with somebody who is voluntarily answering technical questions or chasing parts for seventy year old equipment to help out their curator, project manager, or CMO.

PC

Funny you mention this Sandy, I had been thinking about ways to "revive" RYPN in it's online form recently. I also like the idea of keeping it in website form (more economical, I think) but restoring some of its former glory.

I was recently reading posts from years ago. I noted a few well-known experts whom I presume we've since chased off. I also noted some great articles, in particular "Steam Locomotive Surveys for Restoration" by Dave Lathrop and "The EMD 567 Engine in the 21st Century" by Preston Cook. I even noted a younger version of myself asking all sorts of "noob" questions. (Trying to remember that last one when I grumble about some kid on here...)

Among my thoughts:

- Get some articles moving again. The one currently on the front page, a great book review by Dave Lathrop, is almost a year old. I've kicked around the idea of writing something a few times, but I'm always hesitant as there are a few personalities around here that don't hesitate to bash other people's work. Who wants to go through that? There are, however, many true experts that stop by here and we'd love to hear some of what they have to say. The recent Lempor Exhaust discussion, prior to the bit of ugliness of the last couple days, is a great example. There's a bunch of groups out there doing stuff, why not take a few hours to share a write-up with us?

- Beg Bob Yarger to come back and set up a historic rail photo links channel on the Interchange. His photos spawned many a good conversation.

- RYPN's board was dissolved in the face of a threatened lawsuit. I think we need to consider re-instating some type of leadership. Perhaps a few people from a variety of backgrounds, maybe even someone with a law background in case that ever happens again. (My opinion only, but that incident was spawned by one person's ridiculous actions and he all-too-often gets a pass for it.)

- Moderate out the foamage. Our Mods do a commendable job of quelling the verbal sparring, but I like the idea of this place being preservation related, period. Be it restoration, nuts and bolts, museum management, historic photos, current photos of historic equipment, etc, but I'm tired of "what's your favorite whistle?" - perhaps I'm just being a humbug on this one though.

There are a few people, especially our Mods and Webmaster, who've kept it going all these years, and it's GREATLY appreciated. Maybe now's the time to start rebuilding.

In summary, I'd be willing to help, or at least shell out a few bucks. Feel free to disagree however, since as I was once told here, "you're just a kid, what the #&%@ do you know?"

edit - RJD and Preston posted while I was formulating, which explains the redundant thoughts. My apologies.

A couple thoughts on this. Since "2.0" is in the title line of the thread, it also implies this idea might be implemented under the philosophy of Web 2.0 This might be all and good for some, but for those who really hate the format of 2.0 I don't think it should go there. So perhaps it should just go with Web 1.5 which would be the same format as what we see basically, but offer some enabled content like an RSS feed. This means that you could be automatically emailed the publication when it is decided to be published.

For this new proposed version to be something more than another dying effort, it will need active interest and fresh blood from outside sources. This means having contributors such as railway museums, ARM, TRAIN, and individuals freely send stuff because the publication is another known good media outlet for them. It would be a supplemental place to publish some of their own articles for their own publications. In fact, I see it acting as a de-facto replacement for the ARM quarterly museum report's detailed articles.

It would be nice to fold in the paid print magazines, perhaps by having them contribute teaser articles, which are executive summaries introductory sections to longer interesting reads at their own publications.

Custom articles, such as technical how-to's or reports of travels to outside of North America, might need incentives to be generated. I'm not sure what, but perhaps it is something other contributors can offer (such as a handful of free online newsletter subscriptions to the WW&F, IRM or whatever place interests you and has it available). In limited distribution, these cost nothing to the donating entity.

Administration of any greater publishing effort effectively needs more money. I see it as at least a part-time job for one or two people. I will leave it to others to figure that out. It is probably the biggest hurtle. A link for a someone to donate via Paypal is easy though. I would like to see this site stay free from all popups and any other non-controlled advertising content, though. This controls the "look" of the publication, which is something at L&RP that was extremely tight. They won awards for it.

Finally, with instant effects of media in our world, I think it needs to have more frequency than monthly. Weekly would be great, but daily would be ideal. Perhaps it should identify itself, in format, more as an online fine newspaper (the Christian Science Monitor comes to mind) than an online magazine (like the old Eleanor P)? Having a publishing deadline and making the effort to see it met will be rewarded with more regular customers of our service.
Olin

Flattered to be placed in the company, Tim. Still here, trying to contribute to flow of good information from legitimately knowledgeable persons (no matter how prickly they may be) and the confounding of foamy drivel. FWIW I submitted two reviews within the past few months, which have disappeared into the electronic file cabinet somewhere, so presumably either somebody isn't reading and posting articles any more, or submission process has changed and I'm unaware of it. Can't speak for anybody else who did contribute, but family matters have forced me to shut down my boomer business and become a home guard in another industry, so i don't have anything interesting in the line of projects to write about any more. I've certainly PMed people who post here and I thought had interesting stories to tell and asked them to write articles, no idea if they did or didn't.

I find the flow of free information and its discussion to be of inestimable value, but I'm noticing there is a growing sense of "proprietariness" about sharing real insight from many expert sources, and the use of "informative" postings that really are barely disguised advertisements that tease more than inform. That's not how I ran my business, or how I treat my industry - whatever I know that might help you I will gladly share, including mistakes and what they taught me. We're too small a market for monopolies, and what makes any of us stronger makes our industry stronger and benefits us all.

So, to get more and better articles we need to have experts willing to share openly and honestly, and have a reliable process for getting submissions up and posted. I volunteer to help as an editor, pulling submissions togoether, since it's about all I can do to contribute any more. Let me know how i can help.

dave

I have notified the former publisher of L&RP regarding these two threads. He may be interested in chiming in regarding all these perspectives.

A good start toward having a reliable process for getting submitted material up and posted would be to fix the stuff that is already posted. A number of the articles on RYPN have lost all their photo links again recently, and this has happened multiple times now. Somebody must be moving or deleting the file folders with the pictures on the servers. Could that problem get resolved before trying to create additional pages that may eventually develop the same problems?

PC