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| GG1 https://rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27696 |
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| Author: | RCD [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | GG1 |
Well there seems to be a lot of GG1 fans out there but why haven't any units been restored to operating condition, the only reason I have heard is so Bull about PCBs in the transforms so they had to be removed. Well last time I checked transformers are still being built so why don't they 'GASP' get some new transformers without PCBs. This is not rocket science here. |
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| Author: | wm303 [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
Where do you propose to run it? The Northeast Corridor? Do you know of any museums or tourist railroads that could supply the electricity? You were kidding ... right? |
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| Author: | filmteknik [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
Doesn't Old Rivets still have her transformer as it was air blast cooled not cooled by oil? Yes, some group could undertake having a transformer made or maybe with the right equipment and some professional volunteer help create one themselves. You'd also need all the tap switchgear which I think was located right on the transformer and is presumably gone. The transformer is a totally custom job: 25Hz with lots of windings and many taps. It's a question of money...lots of it. There would also be some exotic solutions like using modern equipment such as thyrister electronics...perhaps from a scrapped E60. The G's motors, though designed for AC should run ok on DC. Also there is the matter that the elderly G's were suffering from cracks in the truck frames. Very difficult to repair if it can even be done at all. Probably complex welding and a giant annealing furnace required. It would be nice to know what the condition of the various extant G's really is and figure out which could possibly be a candidate for restoration but perhaps even doing that much requires cranes to lift the body off to get a good look at the truck frames; I don't know. I've often thought that a museum like IRM, with several miles under 600V DC trolley wire could put the switchgear, resistor grids, etc. of a trolley car into their G, and wire up either 4 (perhaps 8 in series pairs) of the 12 motors, add a 600V compressor, MG-set, cooling fans, etc. and make it run. Not a genuine restoration but just seeing one run under its own power at all would be quite a sight. |
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| Author: | Randy Hees [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
While I would love to see a GG1 run again.... We need to understand the issues involved... PCB's in the transformer oil, Transformers, most removed (a few not), a place with proper power to run (this will NOT be a museum) then after you have solved that there is the fact that most (all) have significant frame cracks.... It's not impossible... A museum could take one that still has its transformers, fill them with compliant oil, clean and rework the electrical cabinets relays and such, have someone like Strasburg repair the frame cracks... As result of the above it could be certified for operation on the Amtrak NE Corridor or on NJ commuter lines... Assuming there was political support and will. To quote Walter Grey, former curator of the California State Railroad Museum, "All that Stands Between Us and Our Dreams is Large Sums of Money..." (quote by memory, but close) Alternately, "If wishes were horses then beggars would ride" |
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| Author: | softwerkslex [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
I recall numerous reports really focused on the frame cracks as the retirement cause. Otherwise they might possibly still be in service! |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
softwerkslex wrote: I recall numerous reports really focused on the frame cracks as the retirement cause. Otherwise they might possibly still be in service! Put down and get rid of whatever you're smoking. The other impetus for getting rid of GG1's from Amtrak and NJ Transit was the lack of head-end power, or electric train heating in British Rail terminology. Without HEP to worry about, that leaves freight traffic. Amtrak priced Conrail electrics right off the Northeast Corridor. More modern E44 and E33 locos were also retired. The aftermarket for used GG1's, even assuming that anyone was willing to modify them and repair the frames? A total of perhaps four operations in North America: Black Mesa and Lake Powell, Deseret Western, the Muskuming Branch line in Ohio, and British Columbia's Tumbler Ridge line. Two of those four are gone now. All of this assumes that repairing the frame cracks was actually feasible. Which I understand it wasn't. Yes, I could be still driving my father's Ford LTD station wagon. I'd be on my sixth engine, tenth transmission, fifth set of shocks or struts, and would be trolling every junkyard or Hemmings Motor News to find spare window gaskets and door hinges; the car would be half Bondo and fiberglass tape by now, it gets sucky gas mileage, there's a tropical greenhouse in the back corner from all the leaks, and I would be at the mercy of the one mechanic in town that can still adjust carburetors. But hey, isn't it worth it to keep that history rolling????? [runs off to skim Craigslist, where I can get a used Saturn station wagon for less than the damned tranny on the LTD......] |
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| Author: | Walter [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
Well, since you don't *need* 11,000 volts on a 5 mile shortline, the lack of transformers is not a problem. I thought about that after my posting to the lost electrics thread. If the catenary wire is suitable, take an old running diesel, disconnect the TM leads from the main generator and connect them to your wire. 1000 HP should give you 746 kW, if I remember my formulas correctly. Or, couple the diesel to the GG1 and run the cables to the 600 VDC circuit, kinda like a mother-slug set, except the mother unit would not have powered TM's. Wire up the GG1 throttle to 'MU' with the diesel and away you go!! You won't do 90+ mph, but the thing would move again...... Easy as pie!!! :-) |
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| Author: | NH0401 [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
Against better judgement, I'm gonna jump in this fetid pool: Quote: I've often thought that a museum like IRM, with several miles under 600V DC trolley wire could put the switchgear, resistor grids, etc. of a trolley car into their G, and wire up either 4 (perhaps 8 in series pairs) of the 12 motors, add a 600V compressor, MG-set, cooling fans, etc. and make it run. Not a genuine restoration but just seeing one run under its own power at all would be quite a sight Quite a sight to WHOM ? A bunch of penurious FRNs-who by the way, are NOT the intended audience for legitimate rail museums. Quote: Well last time I checked transformers are still being built so why don't they 'GASP' get some new transformers without PCBs. This is not rocket science OK-lets see your design for a transformer. How many EE degrees are on your wall ? BTW, the PCB's were never really the issue-as has been stated many, many times before. And...bad speeling and poor grammar flushes ones credibility right down the hopper. Quote: As result of the above it could be certified for operation on the Amtrak NE Corridor or on NJ commuter lines... Assuming there was political support and will. Political support and will on the part of WHOM? A bunch of FRN's ? How about liability, liability and liability ? Do you know what happens when the NEC goes down and folks can't get to work-including some of our elected reprentatives ? While Brother Mitchell said most of it, I'll add the following: Not only were the things WORN OUT, they were OBSOLETE in every sense of word. OEM support was long gone-with consumable material priced well into the stratosphere. Think steam locomotive. DPK |
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| Author: | NH0401 [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
One more thought: The scope of work entailed mandates that this 'project' meet all CURRENT regulations as promulgated by the FRA, AAR,ASME,APTA,IEEE,NFPA...the whole alphabet soup of regulatory agencies. And yeah-no asbestos. DPK |
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| Author: | Frank Hicks [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
Walter wrote: Or, couple the diesel to the GG1 and run the cables to the 600 VDC circuit, kinda like a mother-slug set, except the mother unit would not have powered TM's. Why bother? If you're not going to be able to hear the GG1's motors anyway for the chugging of the diesel next to it, why not just put the diesel at the far end of the train and shove the GG1 a la Thomas? |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
Quote: While Brother Mitchell said most of it, I'll add the following: Not only were the things WORN OUT, they were OBSOLETE in every sense of word. OEM support was long gone-with consumable material priced well into the stratosphere. Think steam locomotive. OK, let's think steam locomotive... Let's see, you've summed it up pretty well: "Not only were the things WORN OUT, they were OBSOLETE in every sense of word. OEM support was long gone-with consumable material priced well into the stratosphere." Still, lots of operations take "old bucket of bolts" into the shop and occasionally what comes out is a living, breathing steam locomotive. Why do you feel that making them operational is something that should be done with steam but not with electrics? Yes, I know, there are more problems, starting with the obvious issue of where to run it. I agree, it's not likely to happen. Very much not likely. But to simply shoot down the whole idea and say "Why bother?" seems a bit harsh. There are plenty of GG1's around, including a few that are in terrible condition. So why not take one of the total junkers and modify it so that it can work? Pick one that's nearly scrap, and save the ones in better condition to preserve the historic fabric, or whatever the current term for "keeping it in original condition" is. |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
Bobharbison wrote: Why do you feel that is something that should be done with steam but not with electrics? Yes, I know, there are more problems, starting with the obvious issue of where to run it. I agree, it's not likely to happen. Very much not likely. But to simply shoot down the whole idea and say "Why bother?" seems a bit harsh. Here's the problem: If I fix up Ol' 0-6-0 or 2-6-0 #97, I should be able to find her a home quite easily. If I fix up a 4-8-4, either I have to bust my rear to get a host main line to cooperate, or I have to make do with 5-10 mph up and down a display track. Strasburg, Conway, Sierra, Steamtown, Rio Grande Scenic, etc. don't want her. In the case of a GG1, there is ONLY ONE PLACE where she can be run to the satisfaction of the fans that want to see one run, and the people in control of that place (the NE Corridor) are adamantly opposed to the idea for good reason. The fans WILL NOT be satisfied with a GG1 creeping at 4 mph at Union, Rockhill, Branford, Wheaton, or any similar location. Okay, maybe the test track at GE in Erie can accommodate her. And for what? Take it from me, someone with part ownership in 100-mph British diesels: the fans and stakeholders WILL NOT BE CONTENT with any compromise on the order of a low-speed branch or demonstration track. The blowback once those things once running on the main at speed are sitting on slow-speed lines or static shop space is ugly and untenable. So unless those same fans want to put in the effort to defeat BOTH the technical and "political" problems and get the equivalent of the next Graham Claytor and Bill Purdie behind the project............. bugger 'em, as we Brits say. |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
filmteknik wrote: Yes, some group could undertake having a transformer made or maybe with the right equipment and some professional volunteer help create one themselves. You'd also need all the tap switchgear which I think was located right on the transformer and is presumably gone. The transformer is a totally custom job: 25Hz with lots of windings and many taps. It's a question of money...lots of it. There would also be some exotic solutions like using modern equipment such as thyrister electronics...perhaps from a scrapped E60. The G's motors, though designed for AC should run ok on DC. A friend of mine--WITH EE degrees--and I checked out the situation at a Wilmington Shops open house some years ago. The current "transformer package" that goes into an Amtrak AEM7 that's being completely refurbished is about the size of two household refrigerators. This replaces what had been a subcompact-car-sized package. In broad conceptual theory, it could be modified to power a GG1, or the old package could as well, if they weren't being salvaged for modules, etc.. The approximate cost of these "two refrigerators" is about $150K. Installation and mods extra. And you haven't addressed the frames yet. Or the wiring. Or the motors and their condition. |
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| Author: | Jdelhaye [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote: The fans WILL NOT be satisfied with a GG1 creeping at 4 mph at Union, Rockhill, Branford, Wheaton, or any similar location. I have to wonder where the figure of 4 mph came from...... Jeff |
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| Author: | JR May [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: GG1 |
This is a subject that has always interested me actually. GG1s have a certain aura, in my mind very steam locomotive like. The big spoked wheels, the sounds of blowers and such. And of course the look, the body, the way it rolls on the rails. Standing next to one as it rolled by in South Amboy was an experience that I will always remember, but would sure like to see again. I would suppose that restoration of a GG1 is similar in scope (size) to that of a steam locomotive, although with an obvious difference in the technologies involved. Frame and body repairs should be doable as such repairs were made while the locomotives were in service. It really should come down to two primary focus areas: 1) Internal electrics. The PCB problem, old wiring, relays, loads, windings, etc. Its a big job, but more difficult than a boiler overhaul? Probably not, just a different skill set. Having worked high power efforts with the US Army, there are those with skills and knowledge around. 2) External power supply. To me, this is key to preserving the GG1 experience. The G must have all its sounds in place. Changing its guts will kill the aura of the GG1 and certainly its historic value. So, a towed power supply to me is the best option. Its kind of like running a steam locomotive on air. Yes, it runs, but the sounds and smells of steam just aren't there. This is doable, but takes a very different set of skills. A different kind of thinking. J.R. |
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