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| Lost electrics https://rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27664 |
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| Author: | toober [ Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Lost electrics |
A new thread, as I really did not want to completely take over the IRM SD40-2 thread (I changed the subject in my post on that thread, but apparently that did not do it.). Anyway, a couple responses: Howard P. wrote: As for "negligence" by northeastern fans, let's look at this clearly. First, steam was the focus of almost every preservation/minded fan in 1958-1966. Second, exactly where was the stuff to go? Until the first few "tourist roads" started appearing in 1960-63, there was no place for preserved rail equipment, except an occasional unused industrial siding. By the time many groups had the resources (space, money, interest in other-than-steam), most of that stuff was gone. Be glad for what we have. Work diligently to get it under cover, to restore, to interpret. "Negligence" is a good word for this. Being focused on preserving just steam back then certainly sounds like an important part of rail history was indeed being neglected. There were plenty of spots to put the electrics - we managed to find lots of room for all that steam. ATK wrote: In addition to the power requirements for operating electric locomotives and MU cars, who among the preservation community has the infrastructure to support overhead catenary for pantograph operation? To the best of my knowledge, all that exists out there is infrastructure for trolley wire/trolley pole style operation. Who among us has the financial resources to build such an infrastructure, in terms of both the overhead system as well as the power that's required for operation? This is why heavy electric equipment will only ever be preserved for static display. Yes, I realize that the infrastructure to run heavy electrics is pretty much out of the league of railroad museums*, but I have to ask - why must everything run? What is wrong with a properly restored static display? One beyond "fresh-paint-outside/looks-like-a-bomb-went-off-inside" look that is all too common? The visitors will get their fun looking at the old steamers, trolleys, and so forth, and those of us interested in the guts can also have our fun. And for that matter, in the real world, why make the ability to run so important, when most museums can not get even ten percent of their equipment running anyway? -- Will * Honestly, I think, with the right people, you could generate 11 kV @ 25 Hz - enough to move a PRR electric slowly...gently...without much of a load. The problem is that the guys that have this expertise probably have nothing to do with railroading. |
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| Author: | Randy Hees [ Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
You could compare heavy electrics to Cable cars... No museum is going to invest in the infrastructure to operate cable cars... We are lucky that San Francisco Municipal Railway continues to operate cable cars. Any other museums with cable cars will be static displays. |
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| Author: | JimBoylan [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
There are at least 3 museums with overhead wire that can take pantographs and trolley poles. |
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| Author: | softwerkslex [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
Quote: There are at least 3 museums with overhead wire that can take pantographs and trolley poles. I think the conversation refers to operation of class 1 electrics such as 11,000 volt systems, some of which had odd current frequencies no longer available from the electric grid. |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
I've often repeated the semi-based-in-reality joke that the Electroliner/LibertyLiner at Rockhill Trolley Museum made all the lights in the Orbisonia/Rockhill Furnace area dim when it was powered up to "run" on the line. Picture the power demands of a GG1. My friends will do the math, if you're interested. <:-) |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
> I have to ask - why must everything run? I don't know that everything must run, but I feel it's very important that something run. It shows the visitors the artifacts in a way that no static display can accomplish. Here in Seattle we've got the Museum of Flight. World class museum, really nice. But no operating displays. The static displays are in perfect condition, well done, nicely explained, etc, etc. But I still cannot get nearly the feeling I do when I go to an airshow and see a vintage plane with a radial engine taking off down the runway. It literally brings it o life. Airplane museums generally have a much higher risk factor to consider. When the engine on your vintage Diesel Electric conks out mid trip, you don't have to find a handy field to land it in, and hope it's not demolished. So they have a lot more reason to not operate what they're preserving. But the risk factors are there for any historic artifact, even if it's just wear and tear. Still, I think that actually seeing the artifact do what it was designed to do is the best way to show folks what it is all about. |
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| Author: | JohnCloos [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
An interesting (and important) point about operation of preserved airplanes versus preserved railroad equipment. But I personally have to agree with the earlier statement, what is wrong with static displays ? You don't go to a car museum and expect to see anyone driving the autos around, no one at the local military museum is likely to be firing up a tank. As noted earlier, no one is going to have an operating cable car system, yet a static display can still go a long ways to telling the story. The car is presumably sitting on track, how much effort is needed to put some paving bricks in place and some type of dummy cable slot (along with signage that tells what that slot is for, how the cable works, etc) Similarly with a mainline electric, no one has the overhead infrastructure (or the mainline to make it worthwhile) for a GG-1, yet a static display can be put together that tells the story as well. Some type of non-operating catenary, doesn't even need to be the real thing, easily enough simulated with lightweight materials, the pan extended to a prescribed height to "look" like it's doing it's job. This discussion follows along some similar thoughts being tossed about (as usual) on the IRM discussion group on Yahoo. While most of us are to close to the argument to see it clearly, a railroad museum has to appeal to more than "train nuts". Visit your local museum on any typical day and you're likely to find one or several (depending on the size of your museum) moms and/or kids, waiting off to the side while dad is drooling over every spare set of trucks off in the weeds. (Sorry, it is a predominately male thing) Especially in a place as big as IRM, but at pretty much all museums, you see it all the time. The interest and enthusiasm shown as they entered the gate starts to dwindle fast, the train ride (assuming there is one) keeps you going for a bit, but eventually they're hunkered down in the shade waiting for the railfan to finish so they can all go home. The end result, the family doesn't come back, maybe just the railfan part of the family does, and your money-making potential dwindles precipitously. Exhibits, including static displays that are more than just a nicely painted piece of equipment are a great way to hold the interest of your captured audience,, the more you can offer, the better experience, the more likely for repeat business, and the associated monies spent. |
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| Author: | robertmacdowell [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
JimBoylan wrote: There are at least 3 museums with overhead wire that can take pantographs and trolley poles. Yes, and every one of us has wrecked pans. Maintaining wire fit for pans is harder than it sounds. softwerkslex wrote: I think the conversation refers to operation of class 1 electrics such as 11,000 volt systems, some of which had odd current frequencies no longer available from the electric grid. Won't happen anyway. 11kv would take totally new overhead and it's pretty dangerous stuff. First thing that happened inside the loco is they chopped it down to something workable in the neighborhood of 600V. JohnCloos wrote: As noted earlier, no one is going to have an operating cable car system, yet a static display can still go a long ways to telling the story. Or BART. Or the UTDC linear-induction system. |
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| Author: | Bob Davis [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
The "static display" vs. "operating railway" discussion has been going on for a long time. In the world of steam, nobody expects a UP 4000-class steamer (Big Boy) to run again. Same goes for the SP Cab-forward at Calif. State RR Museum and the SP 4-4-2 at Travel Town (in LA's Griffith Park), but they're still valuable relics of steam days. On the other hand, seeing a steamer in service, whether it's on the Disneyland RR, Orange Empire's main line, or the former Santa Fe route to San Diego, tells the story of steam in a way no static display or video can. Likewise, we'll probably never see a GG-1 run again, and they're impressive just sitting there, but riding an interurban at a trolley museum brings the sight, sound, feel and even smell of electric railroading to life. Probably the closest we can come to main-line electrification is a heavy interurban freight motor; last weekend OERM had PE 1624 powering a three-car train of 1920's era passenger cars--plenty of growling, rumbling and blower noise! |
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| Author: | Tom Richards [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
In the first decade of my life, I periodically stood on a station platform with my foot planted nearly at the edge, and gritted my teeth and resolved not to flinch and watched a GG1 - or two - pull the Broadway Limited right past me into town. Sometimes we went to Chicago. Static display? Forget it. Scrap 'em! |
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| Author: | NH0401 [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
Why were these things lost ? How about-simple commerce ?? What roads owned a great portion of the mainline electric fleet ? Cash poor outfits such as NYC,PRR,NYNH&H and the successor, which would be PC. A retired electric is nothing more than a cache of very high grade scrap metal-No. 1 & 2 'iron', with almost all the copper being high grade electrolytic (>99 % pure). Bros. Cloos and Harbison ask a question for the ages: why does it have to run ? Admittedly, a live steam locomotive has much visual and aural appeal than a dead one-but I would have to wonder about an electric. Would it really make an difference to the visitor whether or not it runs ? I doubt it... Why not use models with operating caternary, supplemented with photos, drawings and some 3-D artifacts. Dave Quote: * Honestly, I think, with the right people, you could generate 11 kV @ 25 Hz - enough to move a PRR electric slowly...gently...without much of a load. The problem is that the guys that have this expertise probably have nothing to do with railroading. Will, you ARE kidding-aren't you ? |
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| Author: | toober [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote: Picture the power demands of a GG1. My friends will do the math, if you're interested. <:-) OK, I'll bite. What would the power demand for a GG1 be, assuming a nice slow start, pulling nothing, on a 0 percent grade? Basically, something very easy on the locomotive, as sort of a proof-of-concept exercise that the electrical internals work. -- Will |
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| Author: | toober [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
NH0401 wrote: What roads owned a great portion of the mainline electric fleet ? Cash poor outfits such as NYC,PRR,NYNH&H and the successor, which would be PC. A retired electric is nothing more than a cache of very high grade scrap metal-No. 1 & 2 'iron', with almost all the copper being high grade electrolytic (>99 % pure). And what is the scrap value of a steamer or mainline diesel? Did anyone ever consider scrapping two or three derelict or common steamers in order to pay for one electric? For that matter, did anyone ever consider just paying the scrap value for any electrics? It can be a decent amount of dough, but it is not a huge stretch to beat a scrapper. Quote: Will, you ARE kidding-aren't you ? While I pretty much know that it would never happen, I think it potentially could - at least with a system that could provide power for simple operation (no aping at the throttle). Someone mentioned earlier that power electronics has changed drastically in the past ten or so years. It is true. The "army of chickens" philosophy has finally displaced the "pair of oxen" philosophy. Basically, modern converter systems use a bunch of smaller, identical modules, all in parallel, rather than one super-power mega-component. The result is that the smaller modules can be made with parts that are a bit more mundane - and much cheaper. For a bonus, reliability and efficiency goes up. Modern broadcast transmitters are all going this way. The huge, water cooled tubes are gone, replaced by a big rack full of identical solid state amplifiers. So, if all the planets were to align, and a group could engineer a system of load-sharing 25 Hz power oscillators using off-the-shelf parts - it is conceivable that enough power could be generated to move around a locomotive. Maybe given ten years or so, when the current generation of broadcast transmitters start ending up on the scrap market - the cost to build the system may be surprisingly low. Or, if someone wanted to make one big honkin' 25 Hz old-school power oscillator, I have an electron tube capable of modulating just over a megaWatt at low frequencies. Just drive it with a big shaker table amp. And have a lake nearby. -- Will |
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| Author: | NH0401 [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
Quote: And what is the scrap value of a steamer or mainline diesel? Did anyone ever consider scrapping two or three derelict or common steamers in order to pay for one electric? For that matter, did anyone ever consider just paying the scrap value for any electrics? It can be a decent amount of dough, but it is not a huge stretch to beat a scrapper. No argument from me on your point(s). I often wonder why nobody took the forward looking step - outright purchase of a NYC Hudson or Niagara or (fill in your favorite) direct from the scrap dealer-for say 3000 bucks. If memory serves me, that was the figure quoted by a now-deceased NYC man. BTW, that money went into an account to pay for.... new diesels. I can guess why outright purchase didn't happen-the idea was outside the accepted realm of possibility-way back in 1946. Better to send letters to 466 Park Avenue and ask for a Hudson or....Guess where those letters went-right in the garbage. Seems to me that the concept of direct purchase didn't really take hold until the '80's. Wasn't there an ex RDG C-630 purchased by a group of guys and then donated to RCHTS -which was an early example of this idea. Anyone for a U-23B on a personal credit card ? DPK |
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| Author: | Bob Davis [ Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lost electrics |
One advantage that the fledging trolley museums had back in the early days: Scrap value for a wooden interurban or streetcar was much less than an all-steel car. Such cars were also easier to move to an off-railroad location. There was a comment made by a steam enthusiast in the 70's that I remember to this day, something to the effect that "maybe our friends at the trolley museums will outlast our steamers. They don't have to deal with pressure vessels and reciprocating machinery; their relics have, at most, eight major moving parts, and DC motor technology is not extinct." Fortunately, this has not come to pass, and there are enough steam, trolley, and now diesel relics running to keep a railfan busy all year. We've even seen steamers go from cold, silent, stuffed-and-mounted park exhibits to mighty locomotives thundering down the main line. Trolley museums have taken "chicken coops" and brought them back to electric-powered life. Sure, we've lost a lot, but if it weren't for pioneering preservation groups and volunteers willing to spend money and get dirty on a long-retired car or locomotive, we'd have lost even more. |
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