See the following:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... 10,1946073

Negotiation problems with the museum in Green Bay for renewing the lease of the engine. I can hardly believe that the museum would have a problem, then again that's risk taken in leasing an engine.

I hope cooler heads prevail and the restoration continues, this has been one of the best success stories out there.

Joshua

I was just thinking this would be an appropriate or relative topic to RYPN, and while I contributed to the discussion on TO, my thoughts are the same here:

The abilities and successes of the Friends of the 261 aren't limited to one locomotive. This could be a blessing in disguise, freeing up members to operate (and potentially restore) other locomotives and contractually own a different machine altogether rather then lease one, which justifies a more substantial investment in capital and effort. Or maybe it's simply the end of a very fortunate era.

KL

Whatever finally happens I'd like to say a huge "thanks a million" to Steve Sandberg, his family and his crew for a job extremely well done. Through dedication, persistence and above all professionalism Steve&Co. have managed to keep mainline steam alive despite an ever more difficult climate.

Difficult to understand why the museum would be playing hard to get as they've certainly got enough stuffed&mounted machines sitting there?? I certainly can understand Steve's unwillingness to plow big money into a machine he doesn't have long term control of.

I'm confident that if Green Bay doesn't come to its senses that Steve will find another good horse to ride!!!

Sometimes our blessings come very well disguised!!!


Ross Rowland

I echo the thoughts of those who say say "thank you" to Steve Sandberg and the Friends of 261 for the many great years of operating mainline steam behind Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 #261. It is indeed unfortunate that a museum supposedly dedicated to railroad preservation would potentially prevent 261's continued operation from happening; let's hope the folks at Green Bay come to their senses, and give the Friends of 261 the opportunity to keep #261 in steam. It's definitely something that the 261 folks have EARNED based upon their past performance.

Its sad to say, but the current 261 situation again points out that even with the best of operators, there's no guarantee for operational/restorable steam. In recent years, we've seen a continual decline in operating steam through no fault of the locomotives themselves. The Ashby's left the Georgetown Loop RR and the Yolo Shortline 0-6-0 was put back on display as a result of "disputes". Steam on the Grand Canyon RR and the Mt. Washington Cog Railway is either gone or greatly diminished due to economics and/or environmental concerns. Now, it looks like the future of three locomotives at Railtown 1897 may be in jeopardy because of a state budgetary crisis. Yreka Western has stopped running steam because of the loss of freight on the railroad, resulting in a financial crisis for the railroad's entire future. And I'm sure the list goes on.

One thing that I feel good about in #261 case is that its management has been successful in co-operating with others in steam preservation. That's sort of rare in steam circles in the U. S.! Let's not forget that the 261 folks operated at the Steamtown National Historic site in 1995 and 1996. They worked with the Canadian Pacific in the operation of #2816 when that 4-6-4 was running in "#261 territory", and they helped with the operation of the Chinese 2-10-2's in Iowa. Now, they're actively supporting Train Festival in Michigan, and are partnering with the #4449 folks for some trips. All that's great; it goes to show that steam operators CAN work together for each otherr's benefit!

I certainly hope that if the National Railroad Museum management does not work out a reasonable lease for #261, it does not mean the end of the Friends of 261 organization. That would be a real loss to mainline steam preservation. If #261 "dies", it might just open the door for some further co-operation between the Friends of #261 and some other steam operator whose serviceable or nearly serviceable locomotives aren't getting much use these days. I'm generally not a "dreamer", but wouldn't it be nice if NKP #765, GTW #6325. or Cotton Belt #819 could burnish the rails for a few years under Steve Sandberg's guidance while the Friends of 261 rebuilds another locomotive of its own?

Frederick G. Bailey

Personally, having no dog of my own in this fight, I admire the effectiveness of the Sandberg management team in getting things done. Could be they might evolve into an impressario, developing operating plans and strategies for several locomotives that are all dressed up with too few places to go - maybe more effectively if they don't have to carry the weight of supporting the cost of maintaining an operational beast of their own. Might provide an even richer, more diverse series of experiences in the long run. Best wishes to all concerned.

dave

At the risk of sounding crass, wouldn't it be in a museum's best interests to lease an engine for a restoration, let that group do all the work, build a name for the locomitive itself, and then take the engine back when the initial lease is up, so the owner can decide what to do with a locomotive that is now in runable (or at least excellent static) condition?
I'm only shocked that this doesn't seem to happen more often than it does...

Perhaps but perhaps not. I'm no expert, but the Friend's business model appears to just about be the only one that is working and it appears to hing on at least three legs:

1) Own your own set of cars;
2) Have a good relationship with Amtrak;
3) Have an outstanding operational record.

Unless the owner has those three things lined up, it's just another engine with no where to run.

JMHO,

Bob Bunge

Warning --this is pure speculation! Given that the Green Bay Museum has been disposing of rolling stock recently, and the fact that they already have have a large steam locomotive on display, I am guessing they don't really want the 261 back. It may be that they think they can negotiate a higher annual payment for the lease to help them balance their budget if they hold out for a while.

Chris.

Just chatted with Steve Sandberg for about 45 minutes and here's what I learned:

1. The museum and the Friends of the 261 are not at an "impasse". The Friends proposed a substantially improved lease to the museum, which the museum didn't find acceptable. They've not commented further or made any other proposals, appearing satisfied that if they wait long enough they'll get what they want.

2. Right now Steve and crew are delightedly getting ready for their summer of fun with 4449 and are extremely pleased with that relationship. If you'd like to support the folks who operated 261 for 15 years and insure more steam from the same folks, stop by the web site (http://www.261.com) and buy some tickets on the fall colors trips down the Mississippi with the 4449. Please? I know its early, but they'd love to sell it out early.

3. There is NO shortage of operable steam locomotives that could be brought to the Twin Cities and operated by the Railroading Heritage of Midwest America, Inc. group (the new official name of the Friends of the 261), for a summer or two at a time (and there's been no shortage of offers to do just exactly this.

4. There is no shortage of restoration candidates that are available and which could be quickly acquired and placed in the shop. In fact, one organization offered two big locomotives for about 40% of what Green Bay is currently asking, both roller bearinged and both excellent candidates.

5. Steve says that all this may be moot, if there isn't enough support for the operation of the Daylight in October, there may not be much point in doing any locomotive going forward, so if you haven't seen the Daylight in a while, or you'd like to see it operate the way 261 has always run, hit the website and buy some tickets. Okay?

So the museum thinks that if they wait long enough, they'll get what they want. This tired old observer thinks they may just have priced themselves out of the market.

Regards,
Doug

Interesting that the folks from Green Bay are noticeably absent and silent on the subject.

It seems to this observer that Green Bay has been undergoing something of a transformation over the last couple of years. Besides the recent deaccessioning of some equipment, there has been a noticeable effort the last few years to clean up the grounds, dare I say, beautify, and get as much as possible not only under roof, but also fully enclosed. There have been a number of posts about this in the last year or so, have there not ?

Short version, and again stressing the point that this is one observer's opinion only,, they have the look and feel of an operation that is focusing on an ideal of having everything properly stuffed, mounted, and labeled. A lot to see, not much of anything to touch, and no operations.

They've also put a lot of advertising effort into opening the museum campus up for what we would likely consider "non-traditional rail" activities, ie, birthday parties, wedding parties, corporate parties, etc.

One has to wonder if their intent is a 50/50 proposition,, if a new lease arrangement can be made to work, great,,, and if not, they return a jewel of their collection back to home, and at a minimum in a cosmetically renewed state. One interesting question should it come to pass that she returns to Green Bay, there are several pieces borrowed from other engines, mostly notably the 265 at IRM are there not ? What might their return mean for the future of the 261 ?

Finally, should the worst case scenario come to pass, what are the best candidates to take the 261's place ? She's a big engine, has that ever significantly limited her use anywhere ? There has been some talk about IRM's 265, clearly the knowledge base and stock of spares works in favor of this, although I have no personal knowledge of (a) IRM's position on such an idea, or (b) the current condition mechanically speaking, of the 265.

At the end, the 261 group has an enviable record of success and safety. The number of operators that are in the "group picture" with these folks is limited at best, rarefied company indeed. Be a serious shame to have them fade away in this way (again, worst case scenario)

I believe that any parts borrowed from 265 were returned already, after duplicates were made for 261.

Jeff

The National Railroad Museum continues to work closely with Mr. Sandberg to craft a mutually beneficial lease extension that will keep the Milwaukee Road 261 in operation for years to come. Although no agreement has been reached the negotiations have been cordial and constructive.

For over 17 years the Friends of the 261 has managed the operation of the 261 in fine fashion. The National Railroad Museum recognizes this and wishes to continue the relationship that has showcased one of the Museum’s finest locomotives.

Lease negotiations of this type often take some time to work through. The length of the negotiations should not be construed as an indication that the talks have failed. We ask for your patience during the final stages of negotiations.

We understand the concerns of the rail community and we assure you that the National Railroad Museum is working hard to ensure that the 261 remains in operation for as long as practical. Thank you for your interest in the National Railroad Museum’s 261 locomotive.

Michael E. Telzrow
Executive Director
National Railroad Museum

It's good to have the facts as posted above, as it's always best to be dealing with the facts vs. the rumor mill.

Let's hope it all works out for the best for all concerned!!

Ross Rowland

Chris.