At the risk of re-igniting the K4 discussions and or issues of management...

It appears that they have received grant funding for the roundhouse building.

http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/conte ... 17749.html

Well I don't want to start ant flame wars either but Altoona/K4 is interesting because there is a lot of money and the results are just not there. Most of the money I have helped museum/restoration efforts get have all been carefully watched to verify results and potentially get the money back if not used properly. I assume they had permission but the article implies $300,000 given for the K4 is now going to the roundhouse. I always cringe when such a change is made.

There are several other projects I know of that have had huge funding and little results (they should remain nameless). How do these groups get and then keep getting financial support with little or no results?

I thing the big funding no results projects are an issue, which stands out in the Railroad Preservation world more so than in other museum types (Art museums,
children's museums, Tech museums, etc.) since those museums tend to have much larger incomes, while we tend towards volunteer run, volunteer operated, low revenue stream.

There is an article in today's San Francisco Chronicle ( http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... =003&sc=46 ) on the bankruptcy of the new children's museum in Los Angeles, due to the loss of a major funder (assets frozen in a SEC investigation) In this case it was a $10 million dollar pledge, as part of a $22 million dollar project.

Against that backdrop, a $2 million dollar grant to a railroad museum for an operational restoration of a locomotive, spent with out the final result being archived is meaningless. $2 million in the art world may only buy one or two significant paintings.

Against the backdrop we are used to, taking 10 years to raise $400,000 for a steel car barn, or 10 years and $40,000 to restore a wooden car, it is outrageous.

I suspect this is why so many of our readers get upset when they see the big money projects while their personal project is starved. I suspect that in reality we are not playing on the same field with these projects, and don't understand the way big museums work, and what they bring to the table.

As your moderator, I need to warn all to keep to the high road. Keep our discussions of this issue within our guidelines.

Thanks, Randy

You are correct that we are not on the same playing field as art museums and the like. However we do compete for funds with things like house museums, local beautification projects, community parks/playgrounds, trails, historic site restorations, etc. In that realm $500,000 is a grand slam home run.

So you are correct, if we compare Altoona to the multi-million dollar world of "mainstream" museums then this is hardly a blip - but still enough money to have it show up on NBC's "fleecing of America".

I still say if the 1361 would had been sent to strasburg , it would be running now in stead of being a jig saw puzzle.

Len.

Not necessarily. If we are to believe the information posted elsewhere in this forum's archives, it's entirely possible that "Strasburg" would have done a thorough examination and said, "The current boiler cannot be restored to operation under current codes. Do you want us to build a new boiler, or return her in one piece as an artifact?" I doubt the political money "created" for the 1361 project would have been permitted to buy a new boiler. So would you have preferred never seeing her run at all?

If anyone wants a spectacular demonstration of the power of political and cultural will and networking, look in Roanoke. Within several blocks, you have a spectacular and ostentatious new-from-the-ground-up art museum, a terrific O. Winston Link Museum in the not-so-old station, and a down-on-its-luck, barely-hanging-in-there Virginia Museum of Transportation looking in comparison like the poor stepchild kicked into the corner.

We can--and MUST--do better. Or else we perish and call in the scrappers. Simple as that.

Well with all the money they have spent on 1361 already , that would had been enough for a new boiler, if need be. Don't you think?
1361 has been at Steamtown since 1996. It should had been done by now. I'm glad I rode behined her a York,PA.
Len.

I understood that the roundhouse had already been under construction. Was I mistaken? I guess that means #1361 will remain at Steamtown until it's done.

What you think, and what even I think (having pitched in a bit, if only briefly, on the 1361 restoration in 1987), is irrelevant. That's a "straw man" argument--a new boiler was never a real option.

If anyone had been in the position to thoroughly examine 1361 before people set in to restore her, she might never have been steamed in the 1980s. If somebody had proposed building a whole new properly-designed boiler as the "only way" to get her back to service--as much as it may have been the most cost-effective way to steam her, and as much historical and preservation precedent as there may have been for such a proposal--it's rather unlikely that the political will and dollars would ever have materialized for her restoration.

Remember, the will to fund this loco's renovation came from wrapping it in its historical context and presenting the restoration as the "pride of Altoona," "Pennsylvania's Official Steam Locomotive," and all sorts of emotional heartstrings in Altoona, Blair County, and PRR territory. If anyone had explicitly said "this boiler is not up to modern code and shouldn't be restored," it would have been seen as a grave insult to "the memory of the PRR" and all those retirees that came out of the woodwork to gaze through the fences and line the tracks. This was, after all, the Railroaders MEMORIAL Museum. You might as well just to to the Henry Ford Museum and report on how Model T's and A's were all badly-engineered junk, or go to the Harley-Davidson factory in York and accuse them of building overpriced junk inferior to the "rice-burner" Japanese bikes.

And where does 1361 sit? Steamtown--yet another example of politics and agendas overriding practical and archival concerns, in the eyes of many.

And, yes, davew833, the roundhouse had been started but not completed. I don't remember the exact status, but at best they had part of a shell from the last photos I saw.

I guess we should be celebrateing that at least the quarter roundhouse will now get finished so that there will be a place to put all the 1361 pieces under roof at "home".

I would encourage Pa. Rep. Geist who has for so long been the momey raising champion of the ARRMM, to use his considerable influence to put in place some effective management so that the multi-million dollar taxpayer investment in this place has some chance of resulting in a long term viable institution.

As to the whole "Strasburg" debate, we'll never know for sure. From my experience (including paying the bills for several complete mainline steam restorations), I'd guess that if the nearly $ 3 million that was spent on this ill fated project had been spent properly at Strasburg, or through other competent professionals, that the 1361 would have been successfully finished LONG ago and be well into her 15yr. active life countdown.

As I've said many times it's a classic example of the old adage ..... " a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing"!!!

Let's hope that the silver lining here is that future restoration efforts will learn some valuable lessons from this case study!!

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Please just remember that Steamtown only gave floor space for the engine. They WERE NOT UNDER CONTRACT to do the work. Altoona was the ones who hired/fired the contractor on that engine.

What a job that's going to be to move it out. No drivers are at Steamtown anymore and she is in the roundhouse.

Not to pick a fight with Mr. Boone nor start another fight over this well worn out subject but it is important for the record to state the facts correctly.

In 1996 when the 1361 first went to Steamtown the arrangement was a complex deal involving the University of Scranton, Steamtown and the ARRMM. As I remember it Steamtowns CMO was in overall charge of the restoration which was to be funded by the ARRMM and the University was to act as some kind of "advisor" and safe keeper of the funds. After years under this convoluted arrangement both the University and S'town bowed out and the work was taken over by a series of different "contractors". Therefore the true facts are that for the first 5-7 years Steamtown was VERY MUCH involved!!!

The single biggest fly in the ointment was that the project was micro-managed from a distance by folks who knew just enough to be dangerous....and the results speak for themselves.

The good news is that the whole saga makes an excellent case study which will hopefully save others in the future from making the same mistakes!!

IMHO-Ross Rowland

No fight Mr. Ross. :).
Remember I 'm still the newbie in this restoration world! One thing I have learned quickly is that these steamers are like old houses, you don't know what you have until you open the walls up. And these steamers are the same way, they may look ok from the outside but start peeling the skin back and YIKES!!!!!!! So I think the safe thing to say is they ran into bigger problems then they thought they had. 565 is already doing that to us. The boiler isn't sitting quite right on the chassis so we have to lift and reset that!
Look at Strasburg doing the restoration on Pacific Lumber #37. I know they looked her over really good but until the boiler inspection is completed you really can't put a price on restoration. (Unless it's done already and Mr Anderson and the guys know what it needs). Mr Ross, you are in the same boat with 614 until the boiler inspection is done you just don't know what you are going to find.