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A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
https://rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27036		 Page 1 of 7
Author:  co614 [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
I've been thoroughly enjoying the many recent videos of the beautiful "new" A1 Tornado posted on Youtube and it has raised a question in my mind I thought worthy of asking on RyPN.

Do you think we here in the good 'ole USA could successfully mount a similar campaign??

One of the most impressive things I've taken away from watching the A1 videos is the huge turnout she has generated all along the routes she has run and the many young faces in those crowds.

A valuable lesson that the success of the UK effort teaches us is that there are the needed sources out there to produce the critically needed components ( frame,boiler etc.) to build such a machine in todays world. And, they've also shown us that for approx. $6 million dollars you can build a "new" 4-6-2.

All this leads me to wonder what would happen if we mounted a campaign to build a new NYC Niagara with an estimated cost of $ 10 million??

Do you think we could generate the level of interest that the Brits did??

Perhaps we could get Jerry Jacobson or Bill Gates or Warren Buffett or other very well healed American railfans to lead the charge with a substantial initial donation if they felt there was sufficient national interest???

Your comments are solicited and will be appreciated.

Thank you, Ross Rowland
Author:  Howard P. [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Nope, no way, nada, not gonna happen.

Here's why (in my opinion):

First, look at your selection: a big 4-8-4. Yes, that's a real useful locomotive nowadays, with Class One railroads being so unwilling to let the already-operable big engines out on their lines.

Better off with a smaller engine, one that could possibly be transported by road (the Brit model), or special (Kasgro-TTX-etc) flatcar, to the various shortlines/museums/tourist roads/regionals that would like to host some steam operations. So, how about a 100-125 ton 4-6-2 or 2-8-2? Or a couple of 85-ton 4-6-0s? (one for west coast, one for east coast, one for midwest) Multiple engines of same design keeps the per-unit cost down.

Second, there would be little if any consensus of "what to build"--- every partisan of the MKT, or Erie, or NH or NYC or whatever would be unwilling to support anything other than their particular favorite.

Last, but certainly not least, American railfans/steam fans are too damn cheap. Plain and simple. Who are/where are the "well-heeled railfans"?

Tell me WHY this idea can be made to work in America.

OK, guys, I've fired off the first shot as "devil's advocate", flame away!!!

And, I hope to be be proven gloriously wrong, and hereby offer the 19 miles of NAUG as a Northeastern location to host a travelling replica steam locomotive (but no big 4-8-4s, please!).

Howard P.
Deep Bunker, CT
Author:  Howard P. [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Oh, one more thing:

Does anyone have any REAL, concrete knowledge that Warren Buffett or Bill Gates are "railfans" in any sense? Buffett is a very canny INVESTOR, who has bought into one or two railroads, as an investment. And Gates chartered a PV train ONCE.

Show me where either of these two men have donated/invested so much as $100 in any preservation/heritage/old railroad endeavor.

We had a member who bugged me for years to "Write to Donald Trump and ask him for money to fix (fill in the blank here-- coach, engine,etc)". Yeah, sure.

Howard P.

who considers himself to be a cynical optimist.....
Author:  Dave [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Our nation has no consensus on symbolic iconic specific steam examples. We have some regional favorites - I'm not certain a Californian with an appreciation for the SP cab forwards would agree that a new Niagara is as worthy a cause. Would a N&W Class J fan prefer a J that runs - old or replica? Probably.......What about those beautiful Santa Fe long high 2-6-2's that carried Death Valley Scotty?

Not at all sure we have anyplace to go once we are built and dressed up. How many big mainline steamers are working more than maybe a couple dozen dates a year, apart from captive programs like the UP?

No, as far as mainline steam goes, I think we have more than saturated the market with available power.

The Gramlings have shown a touring show with a small portable engine is marketable. Flagg Coal works in a lot of places and is cost effective for many potential sponsors. I like the idea of creating a smaller, more portable example of, say, a classic 4-4-0 or Mogul that would work nostalgically as well as economically if we are going to replicate - perhaps a Jupiter or 119 clone, since the bulk of the up front costs for engineering, patterns, dies and tooling have already been invested. Some technological advances could be retrofit for a greener, less maintenance intensive and more efficient machine than a completely historic replica in the process, just to make it more widely economically feasable.

I'm thinking aiming for something about 1880 or thereabouts would be marketable, and portable.

Alternatively, I'd bring back up the concept of the modularly expandable by wheel arrangement new steam discussed on this list probably a couple years or more ago.

dave
Author:  nyc4030 [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Ross knows better than most of us what the money really
would be (10 mil won't do it) and why a Niagara won't be
the one. All the things Howard mentioned are spot on.
We can hardly support the steam we have.
On the otherside of the coin, it is true that they aren't
short of mainline power in the UK nor of engines that
are available for overhaul. Plently of Merchant Navies
both running and not running available. So perhaps
if we recreated a Hudson or another "lost"
engine, it would be enough to loosen pockets but don't bank on it.
How many of those folks watching the A1 fly by
contributed?
Very few.
Author:  thirdrail [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Although I worked for the "red team" before the Penn Central merger, I think the New York Central Hudson would be the most iconic. But, Kalmbach recently conducted a survey of TRAINS magazine readers, who voted overwhemingly for a Union Pacific Big Boy, even though eight still exist and even in steam days it was extremely limited as to lines it could be operated on.

There are two reasons it will never happen here. The first is our legal system, specifically the opportunistic tort bar. No private company with "deep pockets" would be willing to expose itself to the potential liability by permitting a steam powered passenger train on its lines. In the UK, loser pays, so the legal fraternity is not so opportunistic.

The second is the nature of the British railway system. While operations are now privatized, the track remains owned by a government corporation, Railtrack. Therefore the steam excursion operator is basicallly just another track lessee and not a "foreigner" wanting to operate on "my" railroad.

Would be nice, though, and I'd contribute a few bucks...
Author:  eldiner [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Rather than a locomotive, why not an entire train? I am thinking of recreating the Chief or the 20th Century Limited. Where possible you could use the original cars and where not build them from the many passenger cars "saved" but slowly rotting away. For the Century get some E units and for the Chief we could either go with F units or a certain Alco PA that isn't painted NKP. There would be a barber shop on board, full dining and lounge service, the whole recreate experience. A lot easier to move around the country and you can do from a stationary display to a multi-day trip.
Author:  AlderGulch12 [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Well enough people donated to get the engine built. The way I see it the way preservation is handled in the UK and US are so different, to compare the two is a moot point. I agree with those that have said let's get what we HAVE running first before we go building a new engine. I know the 614 generated those kind of crowds and we're all waiting on the YRE at this point. I think several steps are needed, we need to get out of the 1970's mentality when it comes to mainline trips. Those days are gone. How can we use the resources we have no within the reality of steam on the mainline in the US to get steam back on the mainline. Secondly where does the preservation movement fit in on mainline steam trips? And lastly, who can pay for all this?
Unless we as US steam fans support steam no matter where it is and forget this bickering about proper lettering, where engines SHOULD live and run and other unrelated issues other then what it takes to get steam on the mainline, the glory days will remain in the past.
Author:  Stephen Hussar [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Yes it can, and should be done here. Consider the big picture. Forget about where or how often such a locomotive could run, think of the learning opportunities. Imagine how many people would be inspired by such an effort. I'd almost go as far as to say, it needs to happen...for the long-term health of steam in the US.

As far as what to build? Like Tornado, it should be of a type that no longer exists. Big Boy is automatically excluded from consideration.

Stephen
Author:  Miketherailfan [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
How about something from the PRR that never got integrated into their historical collection (or all of its class was scrapped)?
Author:  PCook [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
How about constructing an exact replica of the General Electric Steamotive? It would look right at home pulling and pushing commuter trains on the MBTA.

PC
Author:  wsflco [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Short of the forward frame members and cylinders, the Disneyland RR 2-4-4T #5 "Ward Kimball" is a brand new locomotive:

Image

The overall cost included a good deal of Disney bureaucracy (meetings, etc.). Given the scope it cost them too much, but they have cubic dollars at their disposal.

For around $1.5 - 2 mil, using volunteers, I figured would also build a replica of a BLW 2-6-2 for use at WPRM Portola, and although not "superpower" it would be quite well suited to operation in our tight space. It could also travel easily on one of our moving flatcars:

Tidewater Southern 132 (Ex-Sierra 32)

Image
Seth Bramson collection

Sadly this locomotive wasn't cut up until the late 1950's. Another "shoulda been saved". Luckily the late Erich Thomsen, WP Chief Engineer for many years, made off with the original BLW drawings for the locomotive when they were dumping everything steam related.

http://www.tidewatersouthern.com/contents/motivepower/steam/Baldwin_2-6-2_132/baldwin_2-6-2_132.htm

Building two would be even better. Economy of scale to a degree.

Chris Allan
Author:  David H. Hamley [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
This won't happen in the USA. Some of the many reasons why not have already been touched upon. But consider why it DID happen in the UK. The rail hobby there is absolutely pervasive. My experience is that half the whole place consists of active railfans. How else could over 200 "heritage railways" all survive and prosper? Another factor is the National Heritage Lottery. Although this did not help Tornado (because it's not historic) it does provide millions of pounds of funding for all manner of historic preservation and restoration, a lot of it rail-oriented. One of the very most important factors is having a place to run the loco, at speeds up to 90 mph! Even some of our preserved diesels here have trouble finding a place to run, let alone big steam, or even medium steam.

I was greatly amused by TRAINS' survey that resulted in 33% of the respondents wanting to build a NEW UP Big Boy. What is wrong with you people? (you 33%) There are EIGHT of them sitting around rusting and you want to spend gigabucks to build a ninth? What is it you are smoking or drinking that brings on such delusion?

The suggestion to build modest size locos has much more merit from the technical standpoint, since it is possible to recreate such designs with construction techniques available in the USA today. But if you prefer an NYC Hudson or Niagara, tell me where you will get that huge one piece frame casting poured? China? Japan? But very unlikely in the USA, those kind of facilities are gone.

Oh, you'd prefer one of the not-preserved Pennsy designs? The J and Q classes are simply too big to even think about. (If you want a big 2-10-4, check out B&LE 643) Oh, you like the T1? Now there's a loco that was a bust the day it was built, a product of PRR's misguided "think steam forever" frame of mind, aided and encouraged by Baldwin's promotion of the duplex drive concept. Any RR that bought steam after 1939 (except at the direction of the WPB) was not acting logically. The diesel was proven by then, but these old hats didn't want to acknowledge that.

No, we'll never create any "new steam" as with A1 Tornado. Ain't gonna happen.
Author:  NH0401 [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Forget steam...how about a replica of the Rock Islands' infamous DL-109, better known as Christine.

Fabricate one carbody and trucks...add two venerable EMD switchers and voila!!!

Done !!!!

DPK
Author:  David Farlow [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A 1 Tornado--- Could We????
Does anyone know more about this project?

http://web.mac.com/vtlyon/iWeb/The%20Le ... an%20.html

It seems to meet the criteria of new build, transportable, 1880's as mentioned.

"But if you prefer an NYC Hudson or Niagara, tell me where you will get that huge one piece frame casting poured? China? Japan? But very unlikely in the USA, those kind of facilities are gone."

Just for accuracy, there is at least one facility I know of that can handle a 100 ton cast steel melt, I agree with the unlikely, but it could theoretically be done here.

David Farlow
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