http://www.oerm.org/pages/Carhouse%20Seven.html

Those PE Hollywood cars look like they're getting ready for the evening rush hour.

Sloan

Sloan,

i too have been following that project. It sure is a big barn. They will be able to shelter a whole lot of their equipment. It is always a good thing to get railroad equipment indoors!

It is so hot and dry down there that rain is not the big problem. But the sun is baking the wooden cars to death!

It is too bad though that they did not build a higher class building that they can take public tours iinto. I read that they are only allowed a max of seven people in there at a time.

Ted miles

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rrr/3084566482/in/photostream/

I recently visited OERM and had a chance to poke around the new building. It is good that it's strictly for collection storage. Most mainstream museums only display a portion of their collection at any given time. It would be better if the building had been insulated or other measures taken to stabilize the interior climate, but they chose to get a lot of track under cover for as little money as possible. This building was not placed to attract visitors. It is very remote from the rest of the museum, and most of the equipment inside in not in a condition that would interest any but the most devoted. Inside are six tracks of future projects.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rrr/3084564570/in/photostream/

With more equipment restored, cars could be rotated in and out of the Ruffulo building to the publicly accessible buildings, or short-term outdoor display.

Returning to the remoteness issue, I am sure this was intentional due to the "back 40" storage nature of the project, but it is strange that a museum devoted to transportation, would spread its facilities so far apart, and yet not connect them with the streetcar operation. OERM operates a mainline train between the museum and the former ATSF Perris depot, which is in town. Within the museum grounds, they operate a streetcar loop. I have seen the loop operated with stops along its route in the past, but these stops did little to get people around and were generally not used. The additions of the past ~25 years or so, have been built way outside of the loop, which has not been altered to reach them. Carbarn #4 (heavyweight passenger cars and some PE interurbans) and the Grizzly Flats narrow gauge museum are about 1700 feet apart, and this can only be traversed by foot (unless you are a volunteer, in which case you drive).

Altogether, it is a great museum, but the fractured nature of the museum's factions, and the piecemeal approach to major projects is all too apparent in the organization of the museum's spaces and buildings. Places like this would benefit from master planning that looked at the facility from the user's perspective.

Well, let me take you all back through some history -- the land came piecemeal. Orange Empire has a site master plan that evolved with the land purchases to determine the use of the land and changing options as the site expanded. Part of the master plan is to completely revise the loop operation to provide a typical streetcar street on "Broadway" connecting barn#4 on one end, through the center core of the site, to the area adjacent to the Grizzly Flats building; this will have streetcar loops at both ends for the PCC cars.

The initial property purchased by Orange Empire was 10 acres. The present streetcar loop was constructed around this property. At that time, with a collection of primarily Los Angeles Railway and some Pacific Electric that made sense.

As adjacent land became available it was purchased. The first piece was a triangle of land which now contains a standard gauge yard, the Grizzly Flats 3' gauge facilities, and a park area (the park area was once a parking lot before the current parking lot area was purchased). Then the area east of the loop as purchased in two separate transactions, this became a non-public storage area and includes the site of barn #4. The 15 acres north of the loop, extending from the Grizzly Flats building through the new Ruffulo carbarn came next; without this purchase the central location at "Alpine" and "Broadway" was not all ours. The parking lot area west of the former Santa Fe right-of-way came next. The though a purchase and a lot line adjustment the land west of barn #4 and south of the loop became the museums; this allowed the development of barn #4 to help store mainline railroad equipment -- this was originally proposed to be a storage only building. One of the last land purchases was the five acres or so east of the Ruffulo barn site; at the same time land between the back acreage and the next road was also purchased.

The Ruffulo carbarn site is separated from the core visitor area by a seasonal water course, that like so many in California can be very dry and then rapid flowing. This site is relatively level and was first proposed as a storage building site more than 15 years before the construction of the building.

If all of the land was obtained at one time, at the start of the Museum, the land use would probably have been different. But that was not the situation -- so we make the best of evolving land availability and needs to use that land for an expanding collection.

That sounds like a strong argument in favor of "buy enough land for the world class museum you hope to have someday". Which is not the usual mentality around railway museum land purchases, often "get enough for our immediate needs".

It really seems clear that the land purchase is one of the pivotal moments for a railway museum, when "the die is cast".

Brian,

Please don't get me wrong. OERM has a very nice museum, and a lot of DOWT money has been well-spent in improving the site. My words were offered in the spirit of constructive criticism. After a long absence, I visited the museum a few months ago. It was the first time I tried to look at OERM from the perspective of a visitor whom had never been there before, and I have been thinking about what I saw ever since.

The problems OERM faces with its site design are common to most large railroad museums. Piecemeal development, railroad-scaled geometries (and distances), no budget, and capital projects mostly aimed at fighting fires (even though the oxidation in this case is of a slower kind). I also had been led to believe (perhaps mistakenly) that OERM does not have a current master plan.

You make some good points, but it is important in developing a master plan for a site to not be a slave to the history that led you to where you are now. A comprehensive look at the museum, its fixed assets, circulation, and other factors could help create some fresh ideas on how to improve the visitor experience for any museum. Master plans should also be updated regularly to adjust to new conditions.

I remember seeing the track being extended to #4 in the 1980s, and I recall its use for storage (albeit, "open storage" during special events). I was surprised to discover that building now functions as a heavyweight car display, car shop, and steam shop. Meanwhile, most diesel work still takes place in the open at two locations about 2000 feet apart, and over 20 years later, one still must traipse across a hot dusty lot to get there.

The archive/library is OERM's next building project, but perhaps after that, a new display and orientation building should be built closer to the heart of the museum? It might be even better if if could be located near the visitor parking lot. If placed between the Grizzly Flats carbarn, the mainline, south end of the Pie yard, and Alpine Drive, this building could become the new gateway to the museum. All visitors would cross into it from the parking lot, pass orientation exhibits, and look at restored equipment on display. Barn #4 could then be converted to shop facility.

I agree that it is important to expand the loop. My idea was to make one double-loop line whereby each car would essentially go around in two circles to complete its circuit back at Pinacate Station. I have attached a sketch below.

Brian, I realize I am just a guy on the internet with an opinion, but I also do this kind of thing for a living. I would be love to look at any recent master planning that has been done for the museum so as to offer feedback.

Thanks

Randy

Orange Empire has a master site plan in autocad dwg format. It has several layers of "wishes" and since those designs are only on digital paper, they are subject to change should circumstances dictate. The aerial shown in this thread is quite out-dated as there is now a large slab of asphalt that has been placed strategically to meet the need of hosting community functions requiring a large asphalted area. Being a good neighbor to our city (who sponsors this particular event) became the driving force for the improvement. Was it even on the master plan? No. Does it really fit with the long-term development of our site? No. Was the addition a good decision then? Yes, by all means. It has allowed us to continue collegial relations with important people at city hall that will aid us in future endeavors, and has already.

On some of those buried digital layers resides a larger loop line and complete trackage redesign. Those expensive undertakings are years away, but with a library/archive building boasting 8400 sq ft on the drawing boards, track layout and the library as a streetcar destination have come to the forefront. Given the arduous and lengthy effort required for track construction, it generally lags behind the other development. With that in mind we will probably just run buses to the more distant carhouses.

Scroll down to December posting to see latest progress report.
Sloan

http://www.oerm.org/pages/Carhouse%20Seven.html

Brian,

My first visit to OERM was almost 25 years ago and I am impressed with the way the museum has grown. My personal interest in the Red Cars/ Yellow Cars that the museum started with. And that part of the collection has been overshadowed in recent years.

It is great that land purchases have been possible in this era of high California land prices.

But younger people like Diesels so you have to go where your audiance is.

An expanded street car loop would be a good thing for the museum to consider.

With a library on the drawing boards; where is the building going to be built?

Ted Miles

There was some comment of the spread out campus of OERM. IIRC, their reason for this is the extreme fire danger. The last thing you want is cramped buildings.
I seem to remember there was actually a fire there some years ago.

With all due respect, building separations are regulated for fire safety by the building code, and they do not require the distances seen here. Carbarn 4 is where it is, because it was supposed to be a non-public equipment storage building. Grizzly Flats is where it is, because that is near where the steam folks had been for a long time. The Ruffulo Car House is even further out because it has also been designed to be a non-public equipment storage building. With this last building, a very large portion of their collection will be under cover.
-CWylde
A drawing file is long way from a master plan. I recommend throwing it all out and starting from scratch. Ideas that may have been good twenty years ago may no longer be relavant or valid. You need to survey what you have, determine what works, find what doesn't, and prioritize what needs to be done to fulfill OERM's mission. After that, it becomes a series of design problems. You may still end up with something similar to what you have now, but it is a good idea to validate your plan at least every ten years. Additionally, a strategic plan should be formulated to map out how OERM will try to achieve the plan's goals.

The asphalt area you spoke of is not a big deal in the overall picture. Asphalt is cheap when compared to buildings. Buildings are for a really long time and will limit what you can and can't do in the future.
-CWylde
Is there a prize for irony here? I can only hope they will be National City Lines buses. :/

Ted Miles wrote: With a library on the drawing boards; where is the building going to be built?

If you look at the aerial photo above the dark spot just north of the word "Alpine" would be about the center of the library. It is 70 x 120 so is about 2/3 the length of our carhouse one running just south of Alpine.

We have raised about $235,000 for the library in our first year. Do you have a rich uncle?

Cwylde,

Thanks for the information.

When you start thinking about the design of the interior; I suggest you contact or better yet go visit the Robert W. Richardson Library at the Colorado Railroad Museum.

Their library was built in I think 2000 and it is the best I have seen in any of the volunteer museums. It also has the looks like a train station; but in addition it has a basement level so there is twice as much library there as you think at first glance.

I hope there are some more Mac Seebees out there for your library!

Ted Miles

In the early Spring of 2007 I visited Colorado RR Museum as part of the Spring-time ARM mid-year, one-day conference. They were noting that the building had been occupied for almost exactly 10 years.

I will agree that the Library at CRRM is a good example. But, the staff there were noting that after ten years the physical space was essentially full! As I recall, they were looking at ways of better using the space and finding more storage.

High-density movable shelving is a good solution for increasing the capacity of an existing library/archive facility. Materials other than books can be stored in these things, and best of all, they're on rails.

Here is one example: http://www.reynoldsbusiness.com/storage%20systems%20-%20high%20density.htm

It may be best to limit access to authorized personnel, but I have been in some libraries where the public is allowed to use them. This is not usually an issue in an access-limited archive.

Otherwise, less frequently needed materials can be stored off-site. This seems to be a common solution given my experiences at the CSRM and Bancroft libraries.

Incidentally, will the new library push up against Broadway and Alpine to create an "urban" street condition, or will it be set back from these streets to create a "suburban" appearance? Has this been discussed?