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| The Lost Engines of Roanoke https://rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24642 |
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| Author: | Afboone [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | The Lost Engines of Roanoke |
Just saw this article on another forum. http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/147064 Does anyone have any new info? Didn't The Virginia Museum of Transportation in Roanoke get them donated to them? I just checked on the website for The Lost Engines of Roanoke and it says they were. I'm not an expert but how hard can it be to move these engines? I know if they are moved over roads yeah big trucks and trailers. But there is a line right there. How hard could it be to lay some rails to get them closer and crane them on the lines and then tow them to the musuem? The museum has operation engines so it's just getting them in position. I bet there is enough of us here on the east coast we could push them to the museum by hand. |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Lost Engines of Roanoke |
I've been to these locos and seen them firsthand. First, the track they're on isn't connected. The main line they're next to is a busy main. The locos will have to be craned out of their current spots. They haven't moved in 50 years or more. Chainsaws will be needed just to get n far enough to get at them. Once you get them on this busy main, it would probably take a week or more of running gear work just to get them to the point where you could roll them 50 feet, let alone tow them without brakes/etc to the Museum. Oh, and you gotta build a siding for them at the Museum. Oh, and they're pretty damned big. 90-140 tons each when they were in working order. Go price crane rentals for those kinds of weights. Now, this museum in question is so broke, I doubt they'd find the money to throw down the siding easily, let alone everything else. I'm not being negative here, I'm just stating a bunch of facts. |
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| Author: | dr dodge [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Lost Engines of Roanoke |
you pretty much have to break them down on site into smaller chunks, and/or pay for crane time, special permits, and 18 wheeler time when my brother tells the story of getting the two gem city locos from pulaski to western ny, you realize that kind of undertaking is not for the faint of heart (or wallet) if you haven't moved old, big, and potentially unstable items long distances, you have no idea of the possible nitemares part of the story: so exhausted from too many days/nites clearing and loading locos, and not being able to sleep in the truckstops because of all the random people looking at (aka climbing on) the tank engines on low boys w.va drive: 75mph at hill bottom with brakesmoke, 5 mph at top of hill with antifreeze steam, repeat to nys dr dodge |
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| Author: | Afboone [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Lost Engines of Roanoke |
I looked on Google Earth and it looks like the museum is close by. So I would have to say the rail would be the best way. Ok the trees are not a problem. I know there are plenty of folks who would help. Could the siding be extended to the main line? The cranes would have to have to be worked maybe a PR deal? There has to be somebody on the many websites dealing with steam preservation that can work some kind of deal out. Without looking at the bearings myself, I'm a mechanic, if there is some grease in the key points they will move. Grease and break-free would be your friend here. Plus there is always options with breaking things free. Hey I'm being the positive one here. I know if the word got out for help it would come. |
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| Author: | Mike Stillwell [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Lost Engines of Roanoke |
From what we were told, when our group tried to help, the NS said no way, no how. The museum is broke, as Sandy said. Even after selling the loco to the OC. Not sure how this one will end up, but there are some people who are hard to help. Mike Stillwell |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | I'm NOT trying to be negative here...... |
.... just realistic. I've helped move many pieces of rail equipment, from an old boxcar from one siding to another minus a locomotive to passenger cars halfway across the country. Even IF the VMT owned the railroad--which it doesn't--you can't just throw some grease or oil on a whole slew of bearings that haven't moved in 50 years and expect them to roll. Having seen the track they're on, I don't even expect the track to hold up to any efforts to prepare the locos to roll, let alone rolling the locos on them to an extended, newly-built siding. If we were dealing with ONE Baldwin diesel--maybe. Diesels are easier to free up out of such a situation, and they're far closer to the main. Now, go back and read the Roanoke Times newspaper article you posted a link to in your first query. If the plan of action described there comes to pass, all of this discussion may be moot anyway. They'll get the time to prep whatever loco(s) they want to get out of there as time and money permits AFTER they clear away all the junk surrounding them. And they can leave one or more there. |
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| Author: | Dougvv [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm NOT trying to be negative here...... |
In my opinion which could very well be in the minority, if it takes 250-300K just to mover these locos in the bad condition they are in, I'd rather try to do something more substantial such as returning PRR 1361 to at least a static display with all the parts on. For 250-300k, I am sure the C&TS could get the 497 or 494 operational again. I could also name many other steamers that could be made operational for that amount of money. Although it would be great to save these locos also, I have seen too many museums with the attitude that "we need to grab everything we can" regardless of what state and then there is never enough time or money to restore them and they end up with a lot of items that end up being lost on a museum grounds that might have been saved if a thoughtful justification had been done up front. Along those lines, what might be salvageable parts from the locos that would be useful to keep another loco running. If enough parts can be sold from three of the locos, baybe the fourth one could be saved. Doug vV |
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| Author: | Afboone [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm NOT trying to be negative here...... |
Hey Alex and Doug, you guys have the experience with this stuff. Without seeing things first hand, I can't really say for sure. I just wanted folks to know what was going on with the locomotives. I've never moved a locomotive before. But the way I see it there is always a way and sometimes people have in their mind set on one way to do something and a new mind looking at a problem can find a simpler way of doing it. I wish I had the time to go look at these engines and see for myself. The Air Force keeps me too busy. I guess that's why I see this as a simple process to do. Yeah some PR work needs to be done but nothing is impossible. I've been reading that most of the museums have money issues, don't we all. I've been keeping up with the guys that saved the 2 engines from the woods in PA. West Virigina museum folks. Now that was a tough move yikes!!!!!!!!!! I'm surprised that NS would say no way! Isn't that part of their history? |
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| Author: | whodom [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm NOT trying to be negative here...... |
I just hope SOMEBODY can figure a way to work this out. It would truly insane if these engines were scrapped after languishing in this scrapyard for all these years. |
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| Author: | Afboone [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm NOT trying to be negative here...... |
That would be the worst ever! |
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| Author: | Dave [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm NOT trying to be negative here...... |
I'd discourage positive or negative projections of costs and estimates from those of us not there and involved - we don't have enough information to know how to do it or what it costs. I've NEVER spent more than about 45K to move a piece from lift to set down myself, but then maximum was about 55 tons although distances were much longer. It is hard for me to see how this move could run ove 250K, but again, I am pretty ignorant of the particulars apart from what is being represented here. Questions: is the museum in Roanoke in such a precarious condition that it can't responsibly acquire these artifacts and conserve and preserve them? Are there any other organization that could given their missions and resources? Apart from more deterioration, are they threatened or on a deadline? And, it would be wonderful to see a legitimate representative of the museum post their take on it here. dave |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm NOT trying to be negative here...... |
I would say that NS has yet to say "no way", bu the only way they're even going to listen to a proposal to move them across two busy main lines is IF you have the locos ready to roll pretty much flawlessly. Rehabbed bearings ($$), dropped connecting rods, refurbished coupler(s) ($$), ready to drop on their track in a narrow time window (cranes--$$$$$$$$), etc. Common courtesy dictates that you don't even bother the nice NS folks in town, no matter how much they may like you, unless/until you're 95% or better towards the conditions they would demand. Let's be honest: whatever bearings were there were probably robbed for the brass decades ago; they pretty much can't find the drawbars for the tenders; heck, a couple are minus tenders as I remember! Ultimately, someone's going to have to kitbash 2-3 M2's into one good museum loco and junk the rest. Could someone else grab a spare loco? Never say never--after all, Gaithersburg, Md. paid rather nicely for a West Va. 2-8-0 that had nothing to do with its town--but absent some rich millionaire, don't get your hopes up. Yes, it's a shame that they survived so long but could face scrapping again, but if we wanted another "Barry Miracle", the time for that would have been about 25 years ago. And the owner never let that happen. |
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| Author: | Terry Harper [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Lost Engines of Roanoke |
I am not to familiar with the 'Lost Locomotive' site and how they are situated other than its an overgrown disconnected siding next to a very busy line. With that in mind I cannot help but asking why not move them in pieces overland rather than by rail? Do they have to cross the tracks? Yes, a rather significant cost is involved but. It can be done. Sometimes I think we let our modern technology get in the way of accomplishing what needs to be done. For instance we assume a big crane is required or a complex hydraulic controlled moving rig. Yes, all those things would make the move easier but also lots more expensive. Think back to the old days. How would it have been done without all the expensive equipment? A good example is my research passion - the Eagle Lake & West Branch railroad. Both locomotives were disassembled and moved 50 miles through the Maine woods and then re-assembled WITHOUT the aid of a crane or air bags etc.. Mind you EL&WB No. 2 weighs in at 188,000 pounds. Some pics here: http://news.webshots.com/album/87490988zpckXX When your a non-profit and your budget is tight MAN-POWER is cheaper than EQUIPMENT POWER. We faced the same issues with the EL&WB locomotives - how to build a new roadbed beneath them without the aid of heavy equipment. With the proper equipment the estimate was over $500,000.00 We did "the old way" for $30,000.00 Time to think out of the box........... Terry |
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| Author: | Mike Stillwell [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm NOT trying to be negative here...... |
[quote="Dave"] Questions: is the museum in Roanoke in such a precarious condition that it can't responsibly acquire these artifacts and conserve and preserve them? Why yes they are. The sad fact is that nobody really want$ to $ave them bad enough. BTW - Have you seen Roanoke's new museum of Modern Art? I rest my case. Mike Stillwell Buena Vista, VA. |
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| Author: | whodom [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Lost Engines of Roanoke |
Terry Harper wrote: I am not to familiar with the 'Lost Locomotive' site and how they are situated other than its an overgrown disconnected siding next to a very busy line.
<snip> Think back to the old days. How would it have been done without all the expensive equipment? <snip> Time to think out of the box........... Terry Great post, Terry. The locomotives are located in a scrap yard adjacent to a massive NS railyard in downtown Roanoke. IIRC, the museum is located only a couple of miles away, but on the opposite side of the yard. Getting from A to B requires crossing not only the yard but at least one main line track. Your post reminded me of another "out of the box" locomotive moving feat. I can't find the details of the story right now, but Confederate Gen. T.J. "Stonewall" Jackson's troops moved a steam locomotive ~50 miles (?) on gravel roads with HORSES during the War Between the States to prevent its capture by Union troops. Perhaps these Virginia boys need to be reminded of their heritage before they give up? :-) |
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