I am not the issue here, as much as you want not to have to challenge your statism.

You lose. I worked one summer at Certain Teed. You haven't lived until you work with fiberglass insulation. I worked at dye manufacturer another summer scraping American Airlines blue from the vats. That's not it, but it's enough.

Again, it's NOT ABOUT ME.

Now that this thread has veered wildly…

Has there EVER been a Steamtown post that didn’t end in deleted comments and/or a locked thread? I wish the new superintendent luck, whomever they may be. They’re going to need it.

Speaking of Steamtown, I recently pulled my old slides out of storage from a couple of the fall weekends held at Bellows Falls. Those were a lot of fun. One year, there were 7 locos in steam, I think, including tank engines.
A couple of us would travel by train from Southern Ontario to Montreal, meet up with friends at Gare Centrale there and drive down to Vermont. There was always some high-speed running on the Canadian National Kingston Sub., supplemented with some radar detector-assisted high speed running on the Interstate! All good fun and the one State Trooper was fairly agreeable.
Canadian Pacific heavy Pacific No. 2317 was unveiled in steam one year and was beautiful and joined other CPR power in steam.
I have some great night photo session shots of Canadian Pacific 4-4-4 No. 2929 all polished up and posed on the turntable with steam brought to her. Those night photo sessions were conducted by Jim Boyd who was a first class railfan. He joined us Canucks for bacon and eggs one morning.
That was a lovely spot at Bellows Falls with some good scenic running.
Some of the collection was going to hell back then, but overall, the steam weekends were a heckuva lot of fun. Good memories.

I have said it before, but I think that a lot of the negativity around Steamtown is a concerted effort to lower its value to pennies on the dollar through a whisper campaign ahead of a possible push to privatize it (and other government-owned assets) after the next election. It demeans our board, and all citizens are harmed by such an effort...

I don't believe there's any such type "conspiracy" behind our frustration with Steamtown. Even though some of us might believe that excursions and restoration might be better off being privatized, I think the complaints spring from frustration by the lack of any progress toward improvement, the glacial pace at which any actions do seem to take place, and questionable decisions that do occur ($800,000 contracts to restore a passenger coach, ending partnerships with local historical societies, letting infrastructure deteriorate). Every time a few steps forward are made (progress made under Kip Hagen and Deb Conway), giant steps back seem to follow (Ms. Shepherd) and there is no forward progress. I think Mr. Mitchell's calling the situation a purgatory was appropriate.

John

Wow. Steamtown is always a hot topic on here, and I guess I can understand why. Before this thread gets too far off and locked by a moderator, I had better add my 2 cents. Besides, my popcorn is running low.

I haven't commented on Steamtown threads in the past, because I didn't have any experience to share. However, I made my first trip to Steamtown last June, so I've finally experienced it for myself. I've made a video to share my experience. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/KEEdXs69n10.

It was scheduled to go live here in a few hours, but you should be able to get there now.

I think my biggest disappointment was not the lack of steam running, but the sheer volume of equipment left out in the yard in terrible shape and hidden from view. The displays that were inside and situated for intended viewing were very well done. We really enjoyed the Big Boy 4012, and I though the cutaway steam locomotive was very appropriate. Even the EMD 567 engine block was right at home. But it's the Jubilee, the Meadow River Shay, the 4-6-4T, and the myriad of passenger equipment rotting away that's the most frustrating. I found it humorous that a lot of the equipment was supporting the local ecosystem by providing suitable habitat for plant life!

Unfortunately, I have some first hand observations witnessing the inefficient bureaucracy that is the National Park Service. I've got plenty of examples, but I won't go into them in detail here. Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason as to how or why they do things, and the whims change based upon who's in charge at the time. And typically, upper management moves from park to park pretty often.

My feeling is that the best option for Steamtown is to keep it under the NPS, but have them turn over operations and maintenance of operating equipment to a concessionaire. Park service can maintain the grounds and the static exhibits, but they are not equipped to operate a railroad.

Eric Hadder

The condition of the equipment you mention is my greatest disappointment also. My main fear when it comes to Steamtown is that eventually the condition of this equipment will be too poor to make even cosmetic restoration feasible. We have already seen some old wooden equipment get scrapped, and I would hate to see more of that happen, especially with any locomotives. I would like to see more deacessioning take place if there are no plans to ever restore any of the locomotives, especially, since the items you mention have seen no maintenance since the collection was moved to Scranton.

John

This seems to be baked into the cake at many sites. A couple of orgs I have been involved with from time to time function largely as railroad equipment hospices. The locomotives and cars being used or put on display decompose slowly, while those shoved into the trees or the back yard get to their ends faster due to indifferent - occasionally malignant - outdoor storage, vandalism and parts cannibalism.

Items are never really "restored" in the best sense of the term, just given the minimal amount of attention until they oxidize terminally.

That this happens at both quasi-"public" and ostensibly private locations is no surprise, as incompetence crosses all boundaries... though the tax-supported entities always seem to be able to prolong the agony.

What I am referring to doesn't require conspiratorial plotting, it is what studies of the media refer to as "framing" and "agenda setting", techniques to bring attention to an issue and make it more talked about than it would otherwise be. As has been noted, there are plenty of museums out there with decrepit exhibits, but none of them have recent 100 post threads, or frankly any threads at all, aside from ITM, and that was only when it was being liquidated and its stuff was up for grabs. If people really only care about decrepit exhibits, why aren't any of those places getting attention? I rest my case.

Probably because those places don't or didn't have the funding Steamtown receives as well as the facilities, namely the shop, that Steamtown has.

John

The contention that somehow a “whisper” campaign is going to force a sale to a commercial interest is like The Philadelphia Experiment, it makes for a great story but it doesn’t comport with any known laws that might apply.

This isn’t some 19th century Erie stock market machination. Steamtown has ALWAYS been controversial; ABC’s Sam Donaldson even used it as a pinata to complain about Canadian locomotives as I recall. Steamtown survived the ire of Bruce Vento and Tom Coburn, it outlived the both of them.


First of all, there’s the practicalities of decommissioning; it would likely have to be sponsored or accepted by the Congressman of whatever District would encompass it at the time (Pennsylvania keeps losing seats as other states grow in relative population) as an outside official would certainly be thought as attacking another Congressman’s “property” otherwise. I can imagine the intrepid young WNEP Channel 16 reporter asking the Congress Critter how they lost the old trains as he or she looks to move to a new market.

Even in the rare case when NPS units are decommissioned; they are generally transferred to another government-state or municipal-and of course the acceptance by the transferee is arranged or sought in advance.

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2 ... onal-parks

Assume, for the sake of argument that this occurs. Steamtown is 64 acres in the center of Scranton, largely comprised of archaic buildings. They would have no economically feasible adaptive commercial reuse and might remain on a historic register than would proscribe destruction or incentivize preservation with tax credits. So, razing them would be problematic unless there’s some incredible new venture.

There’s practical limitations here: Access (from I-81; already problematic when there’s heavy traffic). None of the great “anchor” employers of the past three and decades; wooed with that sweet economic development corporate welfare (many now gone) have been interested in being in Scranton’s city limits, instead they headed to Montage (Nat-West. Later Fleet Bank, now?) and my former employer, Prudential (exited the retirement business 2022).

So would Scranton or Lackawanna County accept Steamtown?

For thirty years, Scranton was a “distressed city” under the laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The loss of that designation doesn’t change the fact the underlying economic conditions haven’t really improved. The Steamtown Mall, thirty years ago thought to be the crown jewel of the “revitalization” that destroyed a vast swath of historic buildings to the cheers of an on site and television audience. Go to 49:30 or so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzhbWUbB33o


It was built for $90M and sold for about $5M. It would be easily to blame e-commerce; but the mall had the millstone of city traffic while the Viewmont Mall and Montage shops are much more easily accessible. The city isn’t going to commit itself to new obligations.

Lackawanna County? They already have an association with the successful ECTM, so they might have enough steel wheels on steel rail.

The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania? NO evidence that the General Assembly wants to pick up the tab or force it on PHMC, which already has a railroad museum that is freed from the difficult decisions involved with operating restoration by the happy colocation with Strasburg.

If there was a commercial target here, it isn’t Steamtown, but the line East to New Jersey; presently owned by the Pocono Northeast Railroad Authority with the Delaware Lackawanna as the designated operator.

The big issue now is the ever-threatened Amtrak, that even if it didn’t acquire the track will assert operational primacy. You want a conspiracy? How about the DOI killing this arrangement because Amtrak isn't going to allow steam excursion?

And yet every single critic no matter what their motivation, could have been forced to turn away with their tale between their legs, if the Park Service could have assembled a few notable successes. Maybe getting the 26 out in 2006 rather than 2016? Having the 3713 finished? Stabilizing the shop building or enclosing the locomotives left to the ravages of time? Using the impetus of a retiring workforce to train replacements? Recognizing the value of bringing up the CNJ 113, instead of having discussions end after three years without a thank you?

Maybe at the beginning, Steamtown was hobbled by things like Bruce Vento’s turf warfare revenge. No more. The Park Service was given control in 1986. The grand opening was 27 years ago. Surely by now there should be some record of accomplishment. I spent twenty plus years giving my time, sweat, manual labor and professional expertise. But they finally did the impossible, they made a former wrestler (no matter how lousy you are on the mat, one thing remains, you never, ever give up) give up.

And my only connection with a railroad now is short puts on NSC that expired worthless today (I win, but wish I had bought long puts when NSC was 270)

Steamtown is the equivalent of the old man with a 67 Shelby rotting away in his yard. The one he won't sell and swears he'll fix up someday. That would be unfortunate but not much you can do about it.

Except, in this case, what has to be more than two dozen artifacts rotting away outside of a dream backshop on a multi-million dollar annually funded historic site. They are literally being paid to preserve and restore rail equipment. And unlike the GT500, as US taxpayers, WE OWN THE EQUIPMENT. We have every right to put our two cents in.

Steamtown SHOULD be rail nirvana. A great collection of motive power on the grounds of an authentic steam era site with mainline access and a fully equipped backshop. AND millions in funding annually. The fact that a rail museum run by the federal government continues to fail is both befuddling and self evident at the same time.

The comment about a legislative mandate is an interesting one. It makes me think that we should be directing our ire a little higher up the ladder. Step One would be to make sure the park service installs a new super who wants to see mainline steam. Step Two would be to push for funding. Who do we contact?

Sure... if that old man also had an operating antique car, and an entire garage and display yard filled with museum-quality refurbished cars.