Why bother with small projects? The MBTA is considering a major service route expansion in Southeastern Massachusetts with a budget variously estimated between $1.6 and $2.0 Billion (YES, Billion) dollars. If the technology exists to produce steam locomotives that are more fuel efficient and less polluting than diesels, why not go after a big job and prove that they can perform as advertised?

PC

I don't think even the most optimistic steam proponent has made that claim (lower fuel costs does not necessarily mean more efficient). I think it's fair to state that the technology exists to:

(1) Build oil-fired steamers that produce less pollutants than diesels with the exception of CO2, which is claimed to be the cause of "global climate change". Fuel costs higher; operating costs unproven.

(2) Build coal-fired steamers which have lower fuel costs than diesels. Operating costs unproven.

(3) Build biomass-fired steamers which have zero net "carbon footprint". Fuel & operating costs unproven.

The 5AT Project in the UK is a step in this direction, but it's a long ways from being ready for mass production for revenue-earning passenger service.

Remember that wonderful Kettering quote?

"Every engine is a great engine until you run it".

PC

Perhaps if you consider the Energy Return On Energy Invested (EROEI) of modern steam that can burn a minimally processed regional fuel vs. a diesel-electric which uses a highly refined foreign oil the argument on efficiency improves.

There's zero question that we can build a modern coal burning steam engine that will economically beat the pants off the diesel-electric BUT once you pay the costs off adding all the machinery needed to bring the exhaust into EPA compliance you've used up all the financial advantage of the vastly cheaper fuel!!

The only way "modern" coal fired steam will ever reappear is if the Middle East completely melts down resulting in world oil being both in limited supply and extremely high ( think $ 300-$500/barrel) priced,then the economics may so overpower the greenies that it could happen???

Short of that I don't think so.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Can someone explain to me how ANY steam locomotive can run 90 days without entering the shop-which the latest diesel locomotives do on a regular basis ?

Does anyone really believe that the railroads would have ANY interest in bringing back the (almost completely defunct) steam backshop model ?

Seems to me that the railroads have finally embraced EMD's original concept for locomotive maintenance, i.e., the exchange of 'good' assemblies for 'defective' by way of factory or aftermarket repair.

DPK

Well, yea, I could explain it to you, but it'd take a few pages to do it. As I see it the two keys are (1) state-of-the-art water treatment and (2) semi-automated coal and ash handling. Proven technology to accomplish these exists.

No, I'm absolutely certain railroads would have no interest in to returning to the maintenance practices of 60 years ago.

Ross's ACE team recognized the need for standardized replacement assemblies on their steam design ~28 years ago. I'm sure anybody thinking seriously about steam now would figure this out too.

To stretch this thread a bit can anyone talk some more on the 4-4-0 replica picture that is shown at the top of the thread.

I suppose that the people got permission from whoever owns the patterns used to buil the Golden Spike National historic Site replica locomotive since she is discribed as a sister to the Jupiter.

For example how heavy is the gross weight of the finished product going to be?

if it can be moved around by road in a flat bed truck; then they may have something with real educational and just plain crowd pleasing value.

i am very impressed by the way Bickford Transportation in Maine has trucked around most of the 5 surviving Maine two foot locomotives. They have even taken them to places that had to lay track to run them!

Small is better; that why the narrow gauge types have a big jump. If a replica is going to be built it is not going to be a NYC Hudson; but something small and portable by motor truck.

Another comment; as pointed above how much rebuilding does it take do have a replica? I am not sure if I can get this accross but take the much remarked on D&RGW #346. She has a 1915 boiler, she has a new tender with a stainless steel tank. I think there is a steel cab rather than a wooden one, the wear items such as wheels, tires and so on have to be replacements. Valves, gauges the whole air brake sytem were not there when she left the Baldwin Locomotive Works in 1880.

Maybe the Colorado Railroad Museum has been running a replica and we choose not to call it one. Jack White has commented along these lines when he took a crack at discussing replicas or reproductions if you prefer that term. The Texas and the General have what? A few pieces of their frames from the locomotives that ran in the War Between The States. Any really old antique that had moving parts has had them wear out and be replaced or they do not work any more. What makes them so special is that they did not replace the whole thing with the newer model. And that is what we treasure!

Ted Miles