PC, now THAT is COOL!!!

Sometimes this "all" seems like banging one's head against a wall, and then we have moments like that. Recharged, we come back for more. Usually.

Howard P.

Uh, reality check here: the Interchange IS a chatroom moderated by two or three people. That's all it's ever been. Nothing at all wrong with that, either.

Yes Howard, it was very nice, particularly when it happened completely unexpectedly.

And even more so since the "chance" conversation provided another fascinating and valuable interview that provided even more interesting information.

PC

I think that the more successful online discussion forums (fora?) generate a certain sense of "community" which causes participants to feel as if they're a part of something. And perhaps this is what entitles them to say "We should do this. We need that. We must consider..."

I've seen this in multiple forums (not all rail related) and it follows a very similar pattern. I never, ever experience this with steamlocomotive.info, mostly I think because it doesn't provide a forum for discussion, so no sense of community and no "we".

As a friend of mine who was a board member of a railroad museum once put it: "When it comes to planning, decision making and setting direction, the pronoun is always "We" and when it comes to doing the actual work, the pronoun is always "You".

The bottom line is start writing articles.

We've not had an article published since 2008. Instead of going on and on about what should be done, start writing/submitting articles; the structure can be worked out once there is backlog of articles to publish. If someone sends me a message that they have an article ready to go I will do what I can to get it published.

As Erik said, "build the Hudson". You guys are talking to death how to plan an excursion season, where to run, and how to sell the tickets and there is no locomotive or train. Focus your brainpower, breath, and keystrokes on articles.

Since I have started this discussion on this issue of a new or revived magazine. The ultimate questions I have is the following after reading all of commentary.

1. Who is willing to supply the articles of good format and content? If you are willing to write and would like to provide content for a new magazine that could be in print and digital format please PM me as I would like to start a list. I'm really looking for serious writers to get it moving again. I have the frame work already just need good articles to populate the magazine.

2. If the content is very good would you settle for 6 months or quarterly magazine to start it back up then work toward a site that has supplemental new feeds and updates.

News feed and updates between major release would drive the beginnings of the site and could be used as updates on XYZ locomotive is now running or rail car has been finished since the last magazine has been published and here is the updates.

3. How much are you willing to pay? $35.00, $45.00, $50.00 a year?

4. Right now for min of 500 magazines in print it takes about 3700.00 bucks to have it laid out, printed and sent to your door. The publisher I have been working with makes it easy to get this going again.

The writers provide the articles in word format and then provide the pictures in a high resolutions JPEG or Tiff format without any touch ups they do that there. If there are slides you can send them directly to the publisher to scan and they send them back.

The publisher of the magazine has staff already that will do the layout and setup of the magazine for print.

So the first 83 people @ 45.00 a year only pays for the first issue (Print)

You need 168.00 people @45.00 a year to do every 6 months (Print)

You need 328 people@ 45.00 a year to do quarterly (Print)

5. So how many people are there interested in print vs digital. Is there enough readership to even do this again?

6. Does it hurt your feelings if there was no forum to post too only news feeds to the site?

Sorry folks I have watch RYPN and many other sites and it seems to be a major source of liability and headaches to have them running. If this was going to be started again the focus should be the content of the Web site and the magazine not policing the forum pages for XYZ flaming war. Your Kalmbach's and bigger publishers pay people to watch there sites. If your going to start this magazine again then focus on content out of the gate.

7. Do you add a small kids section to the magazine so the parents or grandparents can share it with them. Lets face it we need new blood to keep these items going.

So folks, I'm asking, opportunity is knocking, and I'm willing to get the ball rolling again do you want to start this magazine back again?

Best Regards,

Steven M Harvey

Serious writers get paid for their work. Not much, usually, but something. For every volunteer you get, I'm willing to bet you'll get about 0.2 articles. Put another way, if you get five volunteer authors, one of 'em might produce an article. I am really curious about this "framework you have already". You seem to imply you already have a paper magazine into which articles could be plugged. Is this correct?

Unclear on the concept here. You're going to have a website to print updates on various newsy sorts of item, in between issues of the magazine? And the magazine would serve what purpose exactly? What do you gain by "dead tree publishing" when the same exact articles and information could be published on the web, simply, easily, inexpensively and in a much more timely fashion?


As presently described: nothing, nada, zilch. $0.00. As described your product doesn't seem to have any particular value and some substantive drawbacks.

Okay, I give up. The publisher of WHAT magazine are you talking about. The magazine already exists? But you're keeping it a secret?

Dead tree publishing: a slow and inefficient way to deliver content that could have been delivered faster and less expensively, electronically.

Doesn't hurt my feelings at all, unless as a part of your plan you want to remake rypn.org into something else. If part of your plan is to shut down rypn.org or make it into something else that fits your business plan better, then I'm pretty sure I'd get quite testy. If however, you leave rypn.org as it is (assuming that you have the power to do anything to/with rypn.org) then why would anybody buy your magazine or visit your site? Hmmmm?

Okay...again it sounds like you'd really, really like to get rid of rypn.org. If you're going to start some Rypn "magazine" do feel free to "focus on content out of the gate". But do it without rypn.org. You once again seem to imply that you'd like the Interchange part of rypn.org to go away to serve your purposes.

I don't think it matters in the least whether you do or you don't.

I might not have felt quite so annoyed had you simply said, "start a magazine again". But "this magazine"? I feel that your plans for rypn leave a great deal to be desired.
I could not help but wonder, as I read your post whether the lack of detail was because the detail I sought simply didn't exist yet, or whether you didn't choose to share it. I'm still not sure.

The forum won't be going away. They're two different things. A magazine is not an interactive discussion forum. I don't stop listening to the radio because I have a TV set and folks won't stop reading here because AMD publishes a magazine.

They both offer things the other can't. The magazine will (presumably) have feature articles illustrated with good photos. Even the longest post on this site would barely make a single page article, let alone an in depth one. The articles are also (again presumably) going to be edited and fact checked, something that this site doesn't do. It could also include references and historical information. All in all, a great resource.

What does this site offer? Timely information. (You're going to put news in a quarterly magazine? Why bother, unless you want a section titled "old news"?) Interaction and discussion. Frequent updates. The ability to converse with the author(s). You can't get that in a print publication.

The two are different animals. Steam and diesel. They serve distinct purposes, and there's no need to eliminate one for the other.

BTW, if, for some crazy reason, you should decide to get rid of the RYPN forum, I can absolutely guarantee you that somebody (wink, wink) will start a discussion forum on railway preservation.

In fact, I just happen to know of one that already exists, but it's sitting on the digital version of a weed eaten siding rusting away. Why is that? Because I enjoy and respect this forum, and so far have specifically chosen not to compete with it, so I have let that forum die of inactivity. That wouldn't be hard to change....

As for forums being hard to run? I manage about a half dozen of them, they're not bad at all.

Steaminfo,

I think you have missed my point 100%. I'll give another shot to explain.

1. I'm not a former RYPN member at all. Goal is not to shutdown RYPN. Goal would be to total start a new magazine not to use the L&RP name at all.

2. The new magazine name is American Railway Heritage Magazine or (ARHM) for short.

3. Nothing to hide as it will come in digital or published formats. You choose what you want but to offset the paid publishers you reference some sort of charge will have to done to cover printing costs. White River Productions does not do printing for free or the layout for free. They print over 25 different magazines for many organizations. One that comes to mind is the Erie Lackawanna Historical Society Diamond Magazine I subscribe too.

This gets the burden off of volunteers to not have to do the layout and they do not have to deal with the distribution side so sending it via snail mail or email for digital folks could be done by them thus giving more time for the writers to do there good work.

4. Yes it will be based on Railway Preservation, Railway Heritage Articles and a mix of items that Trains or Classic Trains does not get around too. How many times does trains or classic trains get into a really good in depth article? The idea is the Articles wrote in the magazine will not show up on the web to make sure the content of the magazine both in print and digital stays with the magazine. I can see the Web Site being used for updates such as the magazine is printed quarterly as an example and you wanted to know more about how Pullman Car X is rebuild is going then the web would be a good place to get the supplemental updates. If you look at Trains is monthly with supplements on there Website and the same with Classic Trains they add updates after the article is printed there site.

Again this goes back to if you want something good you have to pay the good writers to do so then that means the content is not 100% free. Even trains and classic trains makes you pay for a magazine subscription to get into some of the better area's of the website.

5. Very aware that most people want to get paid $$$ for there work. The days of free articles are gone. Show me the money or you get nothing from me. I have folks who I have talked to who have told me some get $50 or up to $250 for there work per article.

So hiding nothing just trying to see if there is an appetite to get a publication going again. I see right now its publish it on the web, make it FREE or will not subscribe to you but thanks for taking the time to dig up all of the research and news feeds for us to consume.

Bottom Line is I'm not asking to shutdown RYPN but asking do you want a magazine with facts checked, articles that mean something to our industry and over all something you can give out to the general public and show them what we really do or is a online forum that only "us" see on a regular bases.

I use forums a lot to read what might be going but do not do a lot of posting due the "opinions" that come out be they are right or wrong. I have been a moderator before on many boards myself and I guess I never got that good experience being the moderator so forums to me seem to be a curse vs a blessing based on sponsoring one and having to put in the $$$ to run the servers and network behind it. Enjoy RYPN and this is where I get off at this station before this becomes a flame war.

Best Regards,

Steven M Harvey

Well, not really.......

When I was working on projects of interest and had interesting things to write about I wrote articles for this forum and was pleased to do so, not put off because I wasn't compensated for it at all, and because I believe a free exchange of information about practical matters is critical for the industry.

I also contributed smaller things like book reviews, because I have had my share of disappointments with books I purchased that didn't turn out to be what they were purported to be, and if I can help prevent somebody else from getting burned, why not?

And, as I mentioned before, I submitted two reviews within the past few months and they are no doubt waiting somewhere in cyberspace for David Collison whenever and if ever he wants to post them. It is probable I'm not the only one. The idea that people doing interesting things won't write about them because they are too busy doing interesting things doesn't hold water - even if nothing I contributed interests you, you found much of interest in L&RP and probably from others contributions to RyPN.

L&RP couldn't make it go with a product of value and high standards and principals who were even grammatical. Doing a worse job for the same market isn't rational or desireable.

RyPN does work mostly - but as Erik explained, it works least for the major principals of the site than for everybody else benefitting from their work. I used to find about 80% of what was posted here of interest; now it's more like 40, but I still don't go anywhere else and don't contribute anywhere else either. 40% is better than 100% drivel.

So, no we don't need another L&RP on dead trees, and we do need to get contributions to RyPN submitted and posted. Pleased to help with editing and layout and general prep as a volunteer if it will help anybody contribute.

dave

See also: Trainline/Railway Museum Quarterly, the ARM/TRAIN Magazine. Which of late has included articles on management, ticketing systems, detailed multi-part series on restoration of an electric locomotive at Seashore Trolley Museum, and regular brief updates on projects at museums and tourist railways.

The ARM/TRAIN magazine is mailed to officers and directors of member organizations, and is available for public subscription. Past issues available FREE.

http://www.railwaymuseums.org/Static/railway-museum-quarterly.html

Wesley

Strictly "business analysis," so to speak:

Britain has TWO major "preservation" magazines:

Heritage Railway: http://www.heritagerailway.co.uk/

Steam Railway: http://www.greatmagazines.co.uk/railway ... azine.html

These magazines are in addition to the bigger, broader-coverage magazines like Railway Magazine and Rail.

I would suggest, nay, recommend, that no one consider publication of an American rail preservation magazine of any ilk or form without reading several issues of each of these magazines. They have managed, very nicely, to create a niche market for this highly specialized hobby/avocation.

One thing I should point out is that, although these magazines do delve into technology and "shop talk" to some extent, they can in no way be considered "trade magazines" or "technical magazines." Much as it pains me to say this, the actual number of enthusiasts and potential preservationists that will commit to reading something like a six-part series on locomotive boilers or steam heating is ludicrously small, and they all probably already have a set of L&RP gathering dust anyway.

Ideally, what should an American-style publication of this ilk have? My own thoughts:

*Colorful, well-reported features on excursion lines, museums, and special projects, in the style of Railfan & Railroad and Trains.
*News reporting, in the style of Railpace and the old Rail News.
*Good layout, photography, and historical awareness, like Passenger Train Journal and most of the other White River Junction-published periodicals.
*Broader-interest material. The articles on the rivet-counting differences between various sub-classes of PRR P70 coaches, or the "photo of every building along the Fiddletown & Copperopolis" pieces, need to be left to the special-interest publications covering those particular rail lines.
*Enough TRAIN/ARM reporting to make it an arm of same, but without too excruciating detail and administrative stuff, which can be a separate, optional insert to members--such as the divide between the NRHS Bulletin magazine and its "NRHS News" newsletter.
*Advertising. Pay the damn bills.

Now, what could/should a website offer that the magazine can't/shouldn't?

*Discussion forum--like this one
*Late-breaking news
*Database/listing of preservation operations/outfits/museums. This could be divided into "premium" listings, where for-profit places wanting to promote themselves can subsidize a larger listing; basic listing for any TRAIN member/subscriber/"contributing" subscriber; and a "wiki" listing of any preservation for preservation's sake--the loco in a park, a private car, the railroad stations hither and yon, etc.
*Master database of preserved rolling stock, structures, etc. searchable by various fields. Need to find another CN 2-6-0, or a turntable or tender someone can spare, or whether or not someone already has preserved a C&NW wooden boxcar? Look no further.....
*Listing of libraries or other archives of railroad resources, both "bricks and mortar" and online
*The website's own archive (maybe behind a paywall?) of high-value articles, book chapter PDF's, manuals, reports, regulations, etc.; possibly an online master index of rail publications or bibliography.

The problem becomes who pays for what. If the concept were commercially viable, Kalmbach, Carstens, or White River Junction would already be printing it. The only business model I see working successfully is that the NRHS, R&LHS, and/or TRAIN collude along with a for-profit model, in effect to partially subsidize the costs associated with this proposal. At the very minimum, an online-only proposal would require an online webmaster/editor probably full-time at tens of thousands per year; this could be partially addressed with a sharing of resources with existing personnel at a publishing house or TRAIN, but even so if you want it done in a quality way that people are willing to pay for, you need to pay for dedicated manpower and not rely at all on volunteers or "I'll get to it when I get the magazine that pays the bills out the door first".

Bottom line: THIS WILL COST MONEY to do right. But no one's going to get rich doing this, even if done "right." It needs to be done because 1) the rail preservation avocation and railroad history field needs to promote and market not only its presence, but its mission, and 2) because, supposedly at least, this is all part of why we are, or should be, giving money to museums and preservation groups, TRAIN, the NRHS/R&LHS, and/or even Trains, R&R, and certain book publishers.

Now, this all comes back to the poignant, yet still unanswered question asked in an L&RP editorial years ago: Do we have a rail preservation "movement" in North America?

I mean no one typing anything, asking/answering questions, posting photos/updates, etc. except those three. I've seen that happen with a lot of forums, e-mail lists, Yahoo Groups, and Usenet.

Not to go all public-broadcasting-pledge-break on everyone, but "this is YOUR RyPN...." If RyPN's "owners" wish to assert control a little too far, they should not be surprised if their appeals for contributions, especially gratis ones, go unheeded.

Very True.......

RYPN is not in a position to solicit articles right now. As I have pointed out previously, the article page is broken, it is not being maintained, and some of the articles presently on the page have lost their photo links. I have pointed this out in the past, the observation does not get answered. What is even more frustrating is that this is at least the third time it has happened now. I maintain a couple of websites for historical groups and I don't understand how RYPN is so good at consistently loosing links to photos unless somebody is moving or deleting folders on the server. I make some mistakes here and there in website maintenance and learn as I go but so far I have not been able to loose links to entire groups of photos all at once.

And this points out a weakness of internet publishing. Unlike print articles that come off the press and depart to waiting customers without ever requiring any further work, internet articles are displayed on systems that require attention and maintenance. And authors can make better use of their time by developing new material, than continually searching for and resending material from past articles in order to make repairs to damaged web pages.

And as Dave pointed out earlier, he has deposited articles in the mailbox and nobody seems to be checking the mailbox.

You have to build the replica Hudson before you can run it.........

PC