Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:13 am

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 10th Post on Page #34, VinylRailfan wrote:

Another unidentified car in use as a party room at the University of South Carolina's Williams-Brice stadium in Columbia, SC. The photo below is only a partial view of the car, photos of the equipment there are somewhat sparce so it was the best I could find at this time. (The car in on the right hand side of the photograph)
http://s3.amazonaws.com/rrpa_photos/77527/DSC_0649.JPG (Jonathan Hinely photo)

423. Hmm, a little hard to figure this one out, but given the A/C duct, this was the room side of the car, not the hallway side, but with all those single windows you'd think the opposite. But based on the number of windows and spacing, this might be either a Plan #2522 7C-2DR or Plan #3523 6C-3DR (more likely the latter if true) sleeper and for many of the window pairs, one window has been blanked over for some odd reason.

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:13 am

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 10th Post on Page #34, VinylRailfan wrote:

-Another car at a restaurant in Houston, TX. It is currently painted as C&NW 300915, which is a MoW number, however I was unable to find info regarding C&NW MoW cars and former histories behind them.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/luna715/8468056975/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/luna715/8469156914/in/photostream/ (Both photos luna715)

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 12th Post on Page #34, jmlaboda wrote:

Pullman Plan 2412B 16 Section sleeper INTREPID to TC 4150 (8/35) sold to C&NW 9/53, to X300915. From the book, THE COMPLETE ROSTER OF HEAVYWEIGHT PULLMAN CARS, Wayner Publications.

424. Intrepid (Lot #4150, Plan #Plan #2412B/U, 1913/35, LS&MS)--Tourist #4150 sold to C&NW (1953) as MofW #X-300915 sold (unknown date) to Railroad Crossing BBQ & Catering (Houston)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:15 am

On Sunday, April 13th, 2014, 13th Post on Page #17, Rainier Rails wrote:

As this thread has continued to identify surviving cars, I have noticed that there were several cars that had been acquired by two different private owners: Jack Ferris and Ruben Darby. Many of these cars had remained in Pullman ownership and pool service after the 12/31/1948 divestiture. However, at this time, a few of the cars acquired by either owner have yet to surface as being extant. Does anyone know the whereabouts of these cars?

Below are listed all the cars I have noted as acquired by either owner.

Jack Ferris-Private Railroad Cars Incorporated owned:

Unknown Status:

316. Capitol Heights (Lot #4923, Plan #3521A, 1925, 10S-buf-lng-obs, ex-Monte Vista)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Midwest Steel (1961) to Jack Ferris (when?)--does anyone know the current whereabouts or status of this car?

Question:

Did Jack Ferris own any other cars in addition to the nine I have listed?

On Thursday, September 11th, 2014, 6th Post on Page #23, parlourcar wrote:

This page has 3 photos date Decemebr 1963 with the Ferris family enjoying their private car "CAPITOL HEIGHTS".

http://contentdm.acpl.lib.in.us/cdm/search/collection/coll4/searchterm/car/field/all/mode/any/conn/and/order/contri

I also have 'NIGHTSTAR" listed as going to Ferris in October 1964, if this is accurate, it was also acquired from Midwest Steel, as listed on Tom Madden's page.

On Thursday, September 18th, 2014, 11th Post on Page #23, Brian Norden wrote:

In the March (annual) 1964 issue of The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (published by The Railway Equipment and Publication Co.) has the following cars listed in the "Privately Owner Passenger Trains Cars" section under Private Railroad Cars, Inc (with Mr John W. Ferris as President):
Capital Heights - private car
Travel Club - 8sec-buffet-solarium obs
Clover Colony - 8 sec-5 DBR

The 1965 issue added these cars:
Night Star and Night Trail - 14 SBR
Nansemond County - 10 sec-solarium=lounge (not listed in following years)

In the 1966 issue the following cars were added:
Wabash Valley - diner-lounge
Dover Plains - buffet-lounge-sleeper
Glen Alta - 6Comp-3DRM

In the 1967 issue the follwering cars were also listed:
Cascade Banks - 10 Rmt-5 DBR
Martha Washington - dinner-recreation

No listing in the 1968 issue.

On Friday, September 19th, 2014, 13th Post on Page #23, Rainier Rails wrote:

316. Capitol Heights (Lot #4923, Plan #3521A, 1925, 10S-buf-lng-obs, ex-Monte Vista, B&O)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Midwest Steel* (1961) sold to Jack Ferris (1965??*)--does anybody know the current status/location of this car??

*Is it possible that Jack Ferris acquired the Capitol Heights and Nansemond County directly from Pullman in October 1965, despite the cars listed as being sold to Midwest Steel?

On Monday, October 10th, 2016, 15th Post on Page #32, NKP779 wrote:

FYI, heavyweight Pullman 8 section/Restaurant Lounge/ Obs. TRAVEL CLUB was scrapped onsite at Decatur, IN in April 2012. It had been in stationary service at the Back Forty Junction restaurant for over 30 years and deterioration was getting severe. It was very much original except for the furnishings in the solarium area. The car was previously stored at Fort Wayne's C.A.S.A.D. government depot (east of New Haven off the NKP) along with over 100 Pullman cars in the late 1950's, part of a Defense Department war reserve fleet. When the fleet was disposed of in the early 1960's, Jack Farris of Fort Wayne formed Private Railroad Cars, Inc. and acquired the TRAVEL CLUB along with the CLOVER COLONY, CAPITOL HEIGHTS. He operated these on some charters on some regular B&O passenger trains, maybe others. CAPITOL HEIGHTS - where are you? The late Glenn Brendel of FWRHS (NKP 765) thought it had gone to Florida but never had any further confirmation of that.

On Monday, November 7th, 2016, 2nd Post on Page #33, Rainier Rails wrote:

Can anyone confirm that the Capitol Heights was indeed moved to Florida, or provide its current status?

On Monday, November 7th, 2016, 3rd Post on Page #33, RDGRAILFAN wrote:

Found a reference to Capitol Heights on the trains web site:
"Saturday, January 09, 2010 1:19 PM
Speaking of abandoned coaches in Atlanta, can anyone verify the origin of the coach at Stone Mtn Park reported to be "Capitol Heights" from the B & O build c. 1926. Understand this car is scheduled to be scrapped. What a shame. Surely a museum somewhere would like to own."
No response to the post, did some additional web surfing to no avail?

On Monday, November 7th, 2016, 4th Post on Page #33, Rainier Rails wrote:

RDGRAILFAN, thanks for the info on the Capitol Heights! So unless someone knows otherwise, it appears that this car is now gone.

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 10th Post on Page #34, VinylRailfan wrote:

-A car on the Stone Mountain Scenic, the image is not the best, but from what I can see, it has had either one or both ends modified to an open platform.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/96665117@N02/19793659961/in/photostream/ (Andy Tucker photo)

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 12th Post on Page #34, jmlaboda wrote:

This car has been on Stone Mountain Scenic for many years but I have had no luck in figuring out which car this is. Hopefully something yet can be determined about it.

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 2nd Post on Page #35, etalcos wrote:

This car is the "Capital Heights".

Guess one can't always write off a car...a nice surprise that the Capitol Heights indeed survives.

316. Capitol Heights (Lot #4923, Plan #3521A, 1925, 10S-buf-lng-obs, ex-Monte Vista, Capitol Limited)--retained 12/31/1948--sold to Midwest Steel (1961) resold to Jack Ferris-Private Railroad Cars Inc. (sometime before March 1964) resold to Stone Mountain Scenic RR (unknown date)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:16 am

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 10th Post on Page #34, VinylRailfan wrote:

-Two cars in use as a snack shop on the Black Hills Central in Hill City, SD. They are both former Parlor-Drawing Room cars that were sold to the US Army and converted to Hospital Cars. The numbers (as found from personal observations) are 552 and 553 respectively. Anyone happen to know the names of the cars?

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 12th Post on Page #34, jmlaboda wrote:

Ditto for the hospital ward cars on Black Hills Central... have known about them for a while now but nailing down identities of these two cars isn't something that is easy to do, what with records for cars rebuilt to hospital ward cars (most later to mortuary cars) being rather scarce. Here's hoping that some of these cars can be ID'ed.

425 and 426. Like Jerry said, finding the records for which cars became which mortuary cars can be difficult at best, so there's not much chance of pinpointing which 2 cars we're looking at here, but I'll make some inquiries.

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:19 am

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 10th Post on Page #34, VinylRailfan wrote:

-Lastly, does anyone have any information on the number of cars used as a hotel at Indianapolis Union Station, by my estimated counts (gleaned from various photographs, an example of one of the cars is below), there are about 13 or so cars (might have duplicated one or two in my counts), 11 of which appear to be former Pullman sleepers and the other two appear to be former Pennsy coaches.
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/09/8e/d0/32/crowne-plaza-indianapolis.jpg (Photographer unknown)

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 14th Post on Page #34, Bartman-TN wrote:

Cars at Indianapolis Crowne Plaza - Union Station

There are three groups of cars - Red Cars are on Track E, Green Cars on Track 1, Blue Cars on Track 8. These are the names on them (obviously not original), as well as the room numbers:

Blue Cars
001/002 - New York, Chicago & St. Louis "Charlie Chaplin"
003/004 - New York, Chicago & St. Louis/Pullman "Louis Armstrong"
005/006 - New York, Chicago & St. Louis "John Phillips Sousa"
007/008 - New York, Chicago & St. Louis/Pullman "Benjamin Harrison"
009/010 - New York, Chicago & St. Louis "Winston Churchill"

Green Cars
011/013 - Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville "P.T. Barnum"
015/017 - Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville "Diamond Jim Brady"
019/021 - The Hoosier Limited/CH&D "Rudolph Valentino"
023/025 - The Hoosier Limited/CH&D "Lillian Russell"

Red Cars
012/014 - "Greta Garbo"
016/018 - "Cole Porter"
020/022 - "Amelia Earhart"
024/026 - "Jean Harlow"

I can't find my details from crawling under them, but this should be a start....

Bart

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 15th Post on Page #34, jmlaboda wrote:

Are these all heavyweights??? Anyone know of pictures of these cars???

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 1st Post on Page #35, Topfuel wrote:

Yes, all heavyweights at the Indianapolis Union Station hotel, and I believe all came from Conrail MW service.

Needless to say, none of these cars are "fully restored" by any stretch of the imagination.

On Monday, January 29th, 2018, 6th Post on Page #35, VinylRailfan wrote:

Jerry, below are some links for images of some of the cars. A quick search found some views, few of which show the entire side of a car, but they are the best I've been able to find at the moment.

-"Lillian Russell": http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/09/1412850084021_wps_8_INDIANAPOLIS_INDIANA_SEPT.jpg (Barcroft USA photo)
-"Diamond Jim Brady": https://www.flickr.com/photos/kyrielle/238455879/ (Laura photo)
-"P.T. Barnum": https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/JVWBnMx8fbXo2o7fll7w2w/o.jpg (photographer unknown)
-"Benjamin Franklin": https://www.flickr.com/photos/jayztrainz/32886096173/ (Jason Leverton photo)
-"John Philip Sousa": https://www.flickr.com/photos/146901152@N02/34091414994/ (Keelson Group photo)
-"Winston Churchill": http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/09/1412850101557_wps_12_INDIANAPOLIS_INDIANA_SEPT.jpg (Barcroft USA photo)
-"Rudolph Valentino": https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/09/8e/d0/32/crowne-plaza-indianapolis.jpg (photographer unknown)

_________________
Wil

Wow, what a motherlode! So with 13 cars total but 2 of those apparently being ex-PRR coaches and not Pullman sleepers, that's 11 more survivors, so line items 427 to 437. Perhaps someone can provide info on which cars these are.

Looking at the photos, John Phillip Sousa (they spelled it with 2 L's) appears to be a Poplar-series 6S-6DB, Benjamin Harrison (not Benjamin Franklin) appears to be a Lake-series 10S-1DR-2C, Winston Churchill appears to be a 12S-1DR, P.T. Barnum appears to be a 12S-1DR, Diamond Jim Brady appears to be a 12S-1DR, Rudolph Valentino appears to be a Plan #4036 Clover-series 8S-5DB (would be only the 5th known survivor of this Plan), and Lillian Russell appears to be a 12S-1DR. So 7 of the 11 ID'ed in terms of configuration, not bad for no car names.

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:47 am

An Update:

Rainier Rails wrote:

209. Windsor Castle (Lot #4484, Plan #4027G, 1917/32, 10S-rest-lng, SOU, ex-Penvir)--sold to SOU #2458 (1948) converted to coach #1041 to Conrail and converted to business car #8 to CSX and converted to executive sleeper #994008 Mississippi--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3115816 (G Gerard photo)

As reported in another thread CSX has sold the Mississippi to Pan Am.

209. Windsor Castle (Lot #4484, Plan #4027/C/E/G, 1917/32, 10S-restaurant, Erie, ex-Plan #2412F 16S Penvir, SP)--sold to SOU #2458 (1948) rebuilt to coach #1041 (1954) sold to Conrail #24 (1983) rebuilt to 8DB executive sleeper #8/#800360 (1984) to CSX #994008 Mississippi (1999) sold to Pan Am Railways as Springfield Terminal (ST) #103 (2018 [I presume, or was the sale earlier?])

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:34 am

More Information:

On Wednesday, September 10th, 2014, 3rd Post on Page #23, Rainier Rails wrote:

352. Pyriton (Lot #4249, Plan #2410A, 1914/40, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #1618--sold to SOU (1947) converted to dinette-coach #3100 (when??) sold to Gordon Farmer in Augusta (when??) to Pete Stabovitz-Hamburg Industries (when??)

A little more information on this one.

352. Pyriton (Lot #4249, Plan #2410A, 1914/40, 13S, ex-12S-1DR)--Tourist #1618--sold to SOU and rebuilt to 24 seat dinette-22 seat chair #3100 (1947) sold to Gordon Farmer-Colonial Hereford Farm (Augusta/Midville, GA) and rebuilt to a transport car for a prize-winning bull as the Headquarters for Hindquarters (sold by SOU sometime prior to January 1970) used for several years and then stored in Midville adjacent to the Georgia & Florida, resold to Pete Stabovitz-Hamburg Industries (unknown date), reported to still be stored somewhere in Augusta.

I recently acquired this original Kodachrome slide from the Jerry Weisman Collection, taken of the car in January 1970 as already owned by Gordon Farmer and/or Colonial Hereford Farm. I'm not entirely sure that Mr. Farmer and CHF are one in the same ownership-wise, or if Farmer resold the car to CHF or vice versa; nor if Mr. Stabovitz and Hamburg are one in the same, as Hamburg back in the late 60's and early 70's was a contractor with the railroads for passenger car ownership, operation, and rebuilds. If not one in the same, then perhaps Farmer leased the car to CHF? And perhaps Mr. Stabovitz had the car stored on Hamburg's property at one time or still does?

Attachment:

S2-918B.jpg [ 64.57 KiB | Viewed 34484 times ]

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:21 am

More Information:

On Wednesday, January 31st, 2018, 10th Post on Page #35, VinylRailfan wrote:

Below is a list of the cars, pulled from this thread as well as my own list, that are still extant that haven't been rebuilt to Business Cars. They are either in original form, mostly original form, or have been otherwise converted to MOW usage. I did include cars built as part of Pullman's Private Car fleet along with a handful of wood cars.

-"Ortega" 10 Sect.-Obs. (Manchester, VT) (Wood)

-"Veritas" Lounge-Compartment-Obs. (Conway Scenic Railroad) (Wood)

Here's the info that Barger's volumes have on these 2 wood cars:

Ortega (Lot #1415, Plan #445F, 1888, 10S-1DR-buf, SP)--Pullman/SP Association as SP #69, to SP #8144 (1892) sold to Pullman (6/1900) rebuilt to Plan #1920 private car Sunbeam (6/1903) sold to North Western RR of South Carolina (ACL) (6/1916) transferred to Charleston & Western Carolina #100 (unknown date) retired and sold to unknown owner (late 1940's) and used as a lakeside fishing cabin near the J. Strom Thurmond Reservoir portion of the Savannah River in Parksville, SC (NNW of Augusta, GA), acquired by the Lincoln family's Hildene Estate (Manchester, VT) (2007) restored by Bob Willetts at the shops of the Lancaster & Chester (Lancaster, SC), completed and moved to Hildene (2011)

The Sunset ex-Ortega is a well-known example of a surviving wood Pullman, and there have been several threads on here concerning it over the years.

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31569

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31729

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31927

Interestingly, an archived version of an article from when the restoration was completed in 2011 said that the car had been used as a cabin for 40 years, but if it was retired and sold for use as a cabin in the late 40's and wasn't acquired until 2007, that's closer to 60 years, so obviously there's an error or gap in the car's history.

Veritas (Lot #2283, Plan #1299A, 1898, 6C-lng-obs, PRR Pennsylvania Limited)--to Wendover (8/1910) sold to Hotchkiss, Blue & Company (6/1922) resold to the Bangor & Aroostook as café lounge observation Aroostook (1920's) to MofW department as #X254 (unknown date) acquired by the Conway Scenic Railroad (North Conway, NH) (unknown date) as parlor observation Gertrude Emma

Sources:

1. "A Century of Pullman Cars Volume One: Alphabetical List" by Ralph L. Barger (Greenburg Publishing, 1988)

2. "A Century of Pullman Cars Volume Two: The Palace Cars" by Ralph L. Barger (Greenburg Publishing, 1990)

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:29 am

On Wednesday, January 31st, 2018, 10th Post on Page #35, VinylRailfan wrote:

-Unknown Parlor-Obs. (Ameristar Casino, Kansas City) (Wood)

Hmm, did a quick search and couldn't find anything. I haven't been assigning line item numbers to the several surviving all-wood or wood-and-steel-composite cars which have come up in this thread, but of course I'll make some inquiries as to what car this is.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:48 am

A Correction & 2 More Survivors:

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 11th Post on Page #3, Rainier Rails wrote:

115. Marco Polo (Lot #6037, Plan #3972, 1927, 5BD pvt. car, CofG)--sold to CofG Atlanta (1944) to NS #30 Marco Polo

Okay, I realized I got some car histories scrambled, as this was actually the Savannah, not the Atlanta. As a result, I missed the actual Atlanta:

438. Edith (Lot #4864, Plan #3416, 1925, 28 seat parlor-1DR, NYC)--sold to CofG and rebuilt to coach #647 (1941) rebuilt to business car Atlanta (unknown date) sold to Atlantic Wood Industries and renamed Port Wentworth (unknown date) acquired by the Georgia State RR Museum at the Savannah Roundhouse (unknown date)

And GSRM has another survivor in their collection:

439. Charles Carroll (Lot #4783, Plan #3418, 1924, 30 seat parlor-1DR, Congressional Limited)--sold to CofG and rebuilt to coach #639 (1941) rebuilt to baggage-express #430 (unknown date) acquired by the Georgia State RR Museum at the Savannah Roundhouse (unknown date)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:44 am

An Update:

As posted in another thread the Stuhr Museum of the Prairie Pioneer in Grand Island, NE, will be deaccessioning the various railroad engines and rolling stock in their collection, including:

331. Lake Crystal (Lot #4725, Plan #3585/G, 1923, 10S-1DR-2C, Sunset Limited)--sold to UP (1948) donated to Stuhr Museum (either 1962 or 1965)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Don Strack's Utah Rails website, page on Pullman heavyweights acquired by the UP: http://utahrails.net/pass/named-heavyweight-sleepers.php

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:56 am

Another Survivor:

There was a post the other day in the Surviving Passenger Cars group on Facebook that indicates that the following car may indeed survive, still in CSX MofW service. The window pattern of the car whose picture was posted does indeed seem to match that of this car during its tenure as a coach on the ACL.

440. Donner Lake (Lot #6010, Plan #3970/C, 1928/37, kitchen-dorm-baggage, ex-K-100, Cuba/Forty Niner)--sold to ACL and rebuilt to coach #1131 (1942) to SCL, to MofW (unknown date) to SBD to CSX

This would be only one of a handful of the streamlined "Betterment" cars rebuilt during the overall 1930's/40's rebuild programs which has turned up as still surviving today.

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/889611057848535/

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:23 am

A Correction:

On Saturday, July 19th, 2014, 15th Post on Page #19, Rainier Rails wrote:

330. BN #976058

The #976058 is currently owned by the Mount Rainier Scenic RR and is stored in Mineral, WA.

The FOBNR website lists this car as being renumbered from GN conductor-baggage #473, and according to the GN passenger car diagram folio of January 1966, the #473 was rebuilt from sleeper #1020, which according to the GN list of equipment from 1950, was one of two 8S buffet lounge sleepers owned by GN, the other was #1021 (which was rebuilt to #474, then #976059).

Checking Tom Madden's CCR database, GN acquired two Plan #4025D 8S buffet lounge sleepers:

Midland Hills Club (Lot #4049, Plan #4025D, 1912/35, 8S-buf-lng, ex-Miraflores)--sold to GN (12/31/1948)

Manitoba Club (Lot #4202, Plan #4025D, 1913/35, 8S-buf-lng, ex-El Cibola, AT&SF)--sold to GN (12/31/1948)

Does anyone know which car became #1020?

Attached photograph taken at Mineral, WA, at 2:41 PM, on Saturday, July 19, 2014:

On Thursday, September 18th, 2014, 9th Post on Page #23, Rainier Rails wrote:

Having received Wayner's "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars", here's what's listed under Plan #4025D on Page #222:

Manitoba Club to GN #1020 to baggage #473.

Midland Hills Club to GN #1021 to baggage #474.

So it would seem that BN #976058 in Mineral, WA, is indeed the Manitoba Club...well, not necessarily...

In the photo section, on Page #XI, is a picture of the GN #1020 Manitoba Club in GN Green & Orange and assigned to the Winnipeg Limited, complete with typical centered Mars Light...now, wait a second! The pictures I took back in July of the BN #976058 in Mineral clearly show the Mars Light installed at the vestibule end of the car, whereas the photo of the Manitoba Club on Page #XI shows the Mars Light installed at the observation end!

So that being the case, it would appear that BN #976058 was previously GN baggage #474, converted from #1021 Midland Hills Club!

330. Midland Hills Club (Lot #4049, Plan #4025D, 1912/35, 8S-buf-lng-sol-obs, ex-Miraflores)--sold to GN #1021 (1948) converted to baggage #474 (1956) to BN MofW #976058 sold to Mount Rainier Scenic RR

Did GN assign both #1020 and #1021 to the Winnipeg Limited? If that's the case, then why was the Mars Light on #1021 installed at the vestibule end instead of the observation end?

Pictures:

1. Vestibule end of BN #976058: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3905804

2. Observation end of BN #976058: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3906029

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. GN passenger car diagram folio, January 1966

4. GN list of equipment, 1950

5. Friends of the Burlington Northern passenger car pages:

___5a. Main index: http://fobnr.org/bncarlist/passenger/bnpassmain.htm

___5b. Former GN cars: http://fobnr.org/bncarlist/passenger/pgn.htm

___5c. GN baggage cars: http://fobnr.org/bncarlist/passenger/gna.htm

___5d. GN #473 and #474: http://fobnr.org/bncarlist/passenger/gnb473.htm

On Thursday, September 18th, 2014, 10th Post on Page #23, jmlaboda wrote:

This may not be an indicator of which car was which, in as much because rider cars such as 494 ran with the vestibule end to the rear so as to make it a shorter walk for the rear brakeman when he had to throw switches and flag the end of the train. It would be a relatively easy thing for the GN to have removed the light from the solarium end and move it to the vestibule end as a part of the conversion to a baggage - express - rider car.

Some time ago, I realized Jerry was correct, much more logical to assume that the records are correct, and that the Mars Light was moved from the solarium end to the vestibule end when the car was rebuilt to a baggage-express-rider, than to assume that this car always had the Mars Light at that end for some odd reason. So apologies for the delay, but I'll go ahead and set the record straight now that this car is indeed the former Manitoba Club.

330. Manitoba Club (Lot #4202, Plan #4025D, 1913/35, 8S-buf-lng-sol-obs, ex-Plan #2521 10S-buf-lng-obs El Cibola, California Limited)--sold to GN #1020 (1948) rebuilt to baggage-express-rider #473 (1956) to BN, to MofW #976058 (unknown date) acquired by the Mount Rainier Scenic Railroad (Mineral, WA) (unknown date)

This is the last update post for now, need to make some further inquiries regarding several cars featured in some of these recent posts, plus a few cars further back in this thread, to see what more information can be gleaned. Stay tuned.

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Txhighballer · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:49 am **Posts:** 773

Rainier Rails wrote:

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 10th Post on Page #34, VinylRailfan wrote:

-Another car at a restaurant in Houston, TX. It is currently painted as C&NW 300915, which is a MoW number, however I was unable to find info regarding C&NW MoW cars and former histories behind them.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/luna715/8468056975/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/luna715/8469156914/in/photostream/ (Both photos luna715)

On Sunday, January 28th, 2018, 12th Post on Page #34, jmlaboda wrote:

Pullman Plan 2412B 16 Section sleeper INTREPID to TC 4150 (8/35) sold to C&NW 9/53, to X300915. From the book, THE COMPLETE ROSTER OF HEAVYWEIGHT PULLMAN CARS, Wayner Publications.

424. Intrepid (Lot #4150, Plan #Plan #2412B/U, 1913/35, LS&MS)--Tourist #4150 sold to C&NW (1953) as MofW #X-300915 sold (unknown date) to Railroad Crossing BBQ & Catering (Houston)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

The BBQ restaurant where the "Intrepid" is located has just closed. Also there is a former SP bay window caboose. The cars sit literally five feet from the former SP line to Hearne.

jayrod · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:55 pm

Quote:

415. Trenton (Lot #4894, Plan #3410A, 1925, 12S-1DR, ex-Paul Revere [1st])--sold to PRR #8899 (1948) renamed from Paul Revere (1st) to Trenton (1951) transferred to MofW department as bunk car #492908 (1960) acquired by Dabo, Inc. (when??) Dabo acquired by Orrville RHS (2015)

Thanks for the sleuthing on this, guys. I'll update my records. If I where to guess, both were acquired by Art Davis/Dabo from Conrail in the early to mid '80s.

Just so you know, both the Parkesburg and Trenton are slated to be scrapped, likely sometime next summer. Both are too far gone and are a hazard. Right now we're working on stripping out what's left of usable sections, chunks, pieces and bits that can be used by others elsewhere for restorations. The cars are pretty well scavenged at this point.