But that is not the only 'choice' you have: you could build a proper restomod.

The Lackawanna shop would not have become 'frozen in time' had working steam continued. It would have adopted modern equipment as made sense or improved operations. And it is indeed the result -- working, safe, attractive steam power -- that is the point of operating the shop. It is supposed to be 'Steamtown', not 'moldering historic fabric town'.

I'm not going to criticize, let alone argue, with people who have 'boots on the ground' and have some idea of how to handle the nuances long-term. But even if the steam doesn't 'operate' regularly, it makes sense to repair the key pieces. on which so much time and trouble has been spent, to where they can operate.

Whether or not you can develop a cadre within the NPS bureaucratic and ranger-centric culture that can recover and perpetuate a proper shop and then proper operations of restored steam is another issue -- but I agree it should be addressed and implemented before 'the edge of history' overtakes us. Certainly we have one Kelly who addressed this at Strasburg and another in different ways in Fort Wayne.

Since Steamtown has been mismanaged under the housing of the National Park Service, and since our tax dollars are being spent to mismanage something many of us know more about in terms of mission, collection, and history than those who have been appointed to run the place, how does one approach rectifying the situation?

Who do you write to? Petition? Present with viable plans to fix the collection before it turns to static dust?

It's all too easy to complain rather than pull weeds out by the roots.

Some years ago I did an in depth look at what it would take to have the NPS hire out the management of the place to a private sector designated operator with a proven track record ( think Strasburg, NH&I, Essex etc. ) that would make proper use of the tremendous capex the feds have invested in the place.

The bottom line is that even with the backing of key members of Congress the culture of how business is done in DC would make it impossible.

My WAG is that the best we can hope for is that the new Iron Horse Society will continue to grow in its offerings to the public and eventually lead to the resumption of mainline steam trips. Otherwise it will continue to be the SOSND.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Suppose we take 2317 as a hypothetical. We’ve been told it is tired and worn and needs much work. Ok, typical of most steam locomotives, but what are we actually talking about here? Well, we no the boiler must be stripped inside and out for cleaning and inspection. Tubes must be replaced. Tubes, of course, are a consumable and not historic fabric. Machinery and running gear worn? Probably. Rod brasses are designed to be replaced, as well as all the pins and bushings in the equalizing and brake rigging. This is maintenance. It’s likely been done numerous times over the years. Are we saying the locomotive should remain a static display to preserve some pins and bushings that may well have been replaced in the preservation period? I know there’s much more to a restoration, my point is what exactly is being preserved at the expense of an operating locomotive?
Unless and until we start building new ones, there’s no substitute for the experience of a live steam locomotive at the head end, pulling your train. That’s some historical fabric that is lost for every visitor to Steamtown who is disappointed with the alternative.

Mark Tomlinson

To fully understand the relationship, one needs to compare the park service to an abusive spouse. The NPS will neither properly fund the park, nor allow vendors or volunteers to fill the gaps. The turning away of free labor and funding on 3713 was merely the latest backhanded blow dished out by the crew in campaign hats. Some may remember a similar situation with DL&W 565 more than a decade ago.

There are several great employees at SNHS who are trying to right the ship. There are great volunteers who are (incredibly) still willing to stand in the cold and sell hot chocolate one cup at a time. The Iron Horse Society was a huge step in the right direction. Your major stumbling block will always be that success or failure is greatly determined by one person, the Superintendent. Hopefully the next appointment will be a good one.

If I were motivated and had more optimism than good sense, I would frame the issue in economic terms. Form a committee of proven industry professionals and lay out a path – not toward steam nirvana but tourism dollars and happy constituents. Shop your proposal to the local politicos and sell the sizzle, not the gristle. Hire a lobbyist and go see Andy Muller. Now you can pitch across several counties and congressional districts. Hope they all like each other and decide to get behind it. Get an appropriation crammed into the next omnibus bill and roll the dice.

Oh, and pray that after all your (unpaid) hard work, Amtrak doesn’t come to town and take most of the railyard and scrap the equipment you were hoping to restore/operate. Cheers.

Addendum: should you be successful, please include enough funds to update the old wye at Lehigh Summit. Ty

Strictly from an external visual inspection without taking anything apart:
Front end frame extension is bent from cylinder casting forward. Wedges are working in the frame
Lead truck wheels are worn to limit with uneven wear from side to side (tram issue?)
Lead truck center casting has numerous (15+) cracks clearly visible with a flashlight)
Lead truck pedestals badly worn
Driving boxes - all crown brasses loose in boxes
Brasses worn out to low limit
Driver tires at low limit
Frame cross members working at muliple locations
Spring hanger bushings and pins are badly worn
Spring hangers rubbing on frame - multiple locations- frames have grooves
Main and number 1 drivers hitting spring saddles
Driver lateral over max limit
Trailing truck wheels loose on axle
Trailing truck wheels rubbing frame / cradle during reverse moves
Trailing truck axle end collars bent outward
Cradle casting badly worn at suspension slides (no way to adjust)
Suspension slides worn, galled, and cracked
Trailing truck boxes worn at sliding surfaces (no way to adjust)
Trailing truck brasses modified beyond limits
Crosshead guids worn
Crosshead slides worn
All rod pins and brasses loose
Lots of lost motion in valve gear (worn pins and bushings)
Smoke box rusted through at multiple locations
Feed water heater bundle (still has asbestos lagging) leaking
Mud ring cracks at all corners
Questionable weld repairs in firebox
(from last annual inspection) Left cylinder has large crack in liner
Tender tank badly rusted at lower 1/3
Tender trucks worn at padestals

Brief history: The 2317 was involved in multiple wrecks and a boiler explosion

Thanks Bruce for that comprehensive list of repairs needed for the 2317 to return to service.

Nothing a million bucks wouldn't cure.

Never say never.........but this one sure comes close.

Ross Rowland

When one considers that the loco came with low miles to Nelson Blount, received minimal repairs at B.F. to return to service for bicentennial steam train, but not used. latter was found to be deficient in the oil firing setup, and corrections were made before going to Scranton, among other work performed to get the locomotive ready. the locomotive was converted back to coal firing soon after its arrival in Scranton. it then soldered on for years as the primary locomotive. given its history it is time for a frame up restoration.

Yes, thank you Mr Mowbray for your excellent description of the defects on 2317. It’s an extensive list. But this is the game, right? If we want to run steam engines, we have to fix them first . I mean, if there’s a better option than great. Fix that one. One thing 2317 has going for it is all its parts and pieces are at least present and accounted for. Was 3713 in any better shape when the decision was made to restore it to service?

3713 was found to be in worse shape than originally believed. Spending the better part of two decades on the water probably didn’t help. Finishing 3713 is still the best path forward. 2317 and 3254 are both complete and serving as static displays and, barring an influx of federal funds, should stay that way.

Let’s hope the incoming Superintendent is open to visiting steam and supportive of the Iron Horse Society. I’d imagine any increase in funding for the foreseeable future will go toward shoring up the physical plant (still no heat in the complex) and the restoration of passenger equipment.

Can anyone please post a full accounting of what has been completed/purchased for 3713? I know the list is extensive. I would do it myself but it looks like all of the IHS updates were wiped.

Also, the Shay has reportedly been moved into the shop for stabilization, and the Iron Horse Society is currently fundraising for two Lackawanna coaches. Donations are matched dollar-per-dollar up to $40,000. Link to donate is here.

And therein lies some problems.

There was an effort to get 113 up there mid last decade and despite Herculean efforts and offers of assistance, no effort was made, no answer was even given. It would have been a positive for both organizations, it was left to wither on the vine, despite the then Superintendent being handed numerous ideas (i.e. CNJ days featuring 113/1554 and The Big Little Railroad showing in the theater). Simply put that was the best opportunity for visiting steam and 113 is no longer interested. Who else is there? What would have to happen for NS to allow a move in this post PSR world?

Although I left the IHS, I wish them the best, but ultimately their capacity to do things depends on the attitude of the superintendent. I simply wasn't willing to take time away from family to allow a Superintendent to check a box on their annual employee review while offering handcuffs and then looking for the exit. Having seen the summary termination of the efforts of the dedicated folks of Laurel Line Chapter; if I were still on the IHS Board, I would have vigorously opposed taking over 3713 fundraising without some kind of guarantee against another less than successful superintendent repeating the same sort of kick in the posterior.

As to the question can the NPS ever develop a cadre of people with the skills to run an operating 20th century museum; I'm loathe to say "no way" only because not so very long ago, I would have dismissed the idea of an operating Big Boy as foamer fantasy.

You need to understand ambitious NPS staff will "post" for the next step on the ladder when it presents itself, wherever it presents itself. For mechanical and operating people, there's no other NPS facility to obtain experienced staff and no place for experienced staff to employ rail-centric skills. Incentives and opportunities matter. To quote Sally Struthers old ICS commercials "do you went to make more money? Sure we all do". Being at Steamtown doesn't prepare you for Yellowstone and visa-versa. Places like Gettysburg and Yellowstone are the primo assignments, sort of like being at a major investment bank for finance people. Steamtown isn't primo.

Had I not been told in response to my inquiry as to length of my time in the ER "uh, we found something" or even if Covid hadn't resulted in a two year shutdown; I might have just continued on. Once removed from active participation, I was forced to be more objective and less blindly enthusiastic.

I wish things were different, but they aren't. I get paid in large part to make predictions of expected results based on various conditions. The conditions I can see now are a gradual loss of operational capacity leading to a Catch-22. If you don't run, you can't train staff; if you don't have trained staff you can't run. As of now, the two or three remaining engineers that ran mainline steam are over fifty and haven't run steam in road operations in almost 12 years. Only those engineers might have stoker experience; since there was no steam from 2013-5 and only the 26 has run since then.

And then there's the issue with the HVAC issues and the new competition with the R&N running trips to places like Tunkhannock and Pittston.

I could be wrong, but I still see the fade to static.

An answer was given awhile ago. The reason why the visitation of the 113 was rejected was as follows:

There was a request to have the 113 to come to steamtown to have the drivers turned to bring them back to a more satisfactory profile. It was agreed that #113 labor was to be provided to do the driver removal work on the Steamtown roundhouse drop pit to remove the drivers one at a time, turn the tires to profile, then reinstall the drivers and put everything back together. The only labor provided by Steamtown was a wheel lathe operator. It was agreed that once the wheel work was completed, that the locomotive would spend the season at Steamtown to participate in hauling the shuttle trains and short excursions. Before the 113 was brought up to Steamtown, two qualified people from Steamtown were sent to Minersville to do a visual inspection of the locomotive to see what kind of work would be required to perform the wheel work. During this inspection, it was noted that the tires would need a large amount of material removed before a satisfactory profile cound be acheived. There was question whether there would be enough tire thickness left after machining without condeming the tires. There were also multiple other issues that would need to be investigated and inspected after the wheel sets were removed. This was to determine the amount of work that would be required before the locomotive could be road qualified by Steamtown shop employees, who would be taking full responsibility and signing inspection reports, and eventually put the 113 back into service. Because the agreement was to perform only wheel work, the offer to bring the 113 to Steamtown was declined by Steamtown.

Steamtown was working on the BLW#26 at this time and all focus of the shop was on the 26. The risk of having the 113 apart for a long period of time in the shop along with the 26 was not something Steamtown was willing to face.

The other issue with running the 113 at the park was the number of self guarded frogs located on the park trackage. The 113 has blind center drivers which are wider than flanged tires and would have to ride up over the frog guides.

Sure is a big plus to have Bruce Mowbray now active on this forum posting the actual facts behind Steamtown decisions that needed explanation.

Thank you Bruce for your contribution. Ross Rowland

Wow... it would have been so tragic to have 2 steam locomotives in the shop at the same town at a place called... Steamtown. Glad they dodged that bullet!