I've heard of the 50 year old rule before. I guess the space shuttle or even the Apollo 11 space craft are not old enough to be classified as historic if you follow those guidelines. Revenue equipment often goes through many incarnations over a lifetime of service. There are dozens of examples that we can all think of pretty quickly. I rode to Florida last year on Amtrak and ate dinner in an old CZ diner. Application of historic can be made or not made depending on how it's defined. There are as many definitions as there are potentially historic items.

I know the West Coast is just so far away for most of you, but SF MUNI has a number of original San Francisco cars in operation, no to mention that whole National Historic Landmark cable car thing (yes, I know, not a "trolley"). As for modifications to the cars, I do not see them as any different than the modifications one would be permitted to perform on a historic building to allow its continued safe use.

These qualify for the exception I discussed above. Can you name any railroad equipment built in this country since 1969 that could be considered anywhere near as historically significant as these examples? A number of space exploration-related structures and equipment have been recognized as Listed or Landmarked in recent years.

The 50-year rule is fine for buildings and bridges, which have useful economic lives exceeding 50 years, so likely will still be around to preserve. Unfortunately railroad rolling stock, along with automobiles, aircraft, etc. generally do not last that long in the service they were designed for because of improvements in the technology. So if you wait for 50 years to consider them for preservation, they are long gone (except possibly for some heavily modified, worn out surviviors)

Imagine if, in 1958 at the end of the economic life of steam locomotives, everyone agreed that nothing 50 years old or older was worth preserving. Since the railroads were done with them, all those steam locomotives would be scrapped, and the only engines preserved would pre-date 1908! Certainly all those engines built after WWII, only 15 years old in 1958 and clearly of no historic importance, would be forever gone.

Of course we cannot say today what will turn out to be considered "worthy" in the future, but for the sake of argument I would say there is a good chance that today's developmental locomotive programs which are attempting to reduce emissions and/or fuel consumption (hybrids, Green Goats etc.) may 50 years from now be considered a turning point in the "greening" of railroading and Americn society in general, and these early attempts, which probably won't last long, should be preserved as soon as they are available.

The space craft in question are pioneering anomalies--the moral equivalent of the Stourbridge Lion, the Rocket, the Tom Thumb, or the first 4-4-0. And, indeed, only history will eventually tell whether they end up as true "pioneering" icons or simply curious relics of a US/USSR rivalry run amok. As the commercial said, "We went to the moon. We found no cheese up there. We haven't been back since."

By contrast, the railroad industry was over a century old, and in decline in North America from regulatory strangulation and competition. Strictly for argument's sake, however, I would nominate the first locomotives and cars built for Amtrak, if they actually survived--the pioneers of what could be state-run railroading in the future. I would also add a Metroliner, pretty much "America's introduction to high-speed rail" (especially if the grandiose dreams of HSR supporters should come true), and maybe one of the Southern's "Big John" freight cars that were a direct challenge to the regulatory establishment. If I expand this further, the preservation of the first TGV and Shinkansen are more than warranted.

And, you know, there's nothing wrong with saving the ordinary. As an example, there's utterly nothing "historic" about the East Broad Top, the Cumbres & Toltec, the WW&F, or the Grand Canyon Railroad. All survived because of freak longevity, and survive and are preserved today because certain folk endeavor to preserve what was once the ordinary, the everyday, the mundane. There are times when the general store or the Main Street square is a more important preservation subject than the Biltmore House mansion.

Come to think of it: Who saved any canal boats?

Our deviation from the original topic is epic, but I find this discussion more interesting. The Apollo 11 comparison is unfair, and I agree with much of what ADMIV suggests. I would also add the Boeing LRV and the original BART/Washington Metro cars. The Sec of Int Stds recognize the place for the everyday, and the EBT and C&TS can be recognize for their extraordinary historic integrity. The GCRY is listed for the history of the railroad and the original buildings at both ends, but does their equipment (remodeled, repainted, far from home) currently have historic significance? If 4960 was presented as it appeared while used by the CB&Q it would be historic, but is it now?

Canal Boats...good question. It would be great to see one afloat at High Falls NY. One could be reconstructed, which, of course, would preclude it from being considered historic.

When you get to the very bottom of it, was is the purpose of any piece of railroad equipment? It is to make money for its owner. Just about every piece of equipment out there has been bought and sold, and then modified to meet the new owner's needs, be it converting a steam locomotive from coal to oil or converting a Pullman into a bunk house. Enterprises like AOE and Greenbrier are not preserving equipment -- they are using equipment to contribute to the bottom line, and thus are simply writing another chapter to a car's work history.

We are fortunate that in some cases for-profit companies have given a nod to history, not that they have to. Durango & Silverton could convert its entire fleet to oil tomorrow for economic reasons and that would be another chapter in the working lives of those locomotives, as they are still doing what they were built to do -- contribute to the bottom line. Ditto for Strasburg. Both of these railroads have assigned some kind of economic value to keeping their locomotives the way they are, and either that economic value makes sense to the bottom line or both have chosen to ignore economic benefits in the interest of historic accuracy (which is lucky for us). The modifications to 4960 are simply a new owner buying a piece of equipment and doing what needs to be done for economics. Mount Washington assigned an economic value to running steam and deemed it not worthwhile.

It isn't until a piece of equipment is pulled from the working pool that "preservation" takes place -- usually this means going into a museum of some sort where keeping it the way it was overrides economic reasoning.

So are AOE and Greenbrier and dinner trains preservation? No. they are simply the new employers for the rail cars they use.

In addition to everything mentioned above, the TVRM's Southern diner even smells the way it should. The first time I walked in that car when they were prepping for dinner I was taken back to the late 1960's. These guys got it right.

There are a lot of interesting issues with trying to do the dinner train "right". We at ELDCPS have been working with a couple of local universities that have culinary and hotel/restaurant management programs and it has been interesting to get their thoughts on operating a dining car. First off, they are concerned about the amount of refrigeration space available. They feel that today's higher end dining involves a lot more fresh food than back in the day. They also want to see a lot more off-car prep than was normal practice. We want to avoid that as much as possible and prepare the meals on board (in the dining car kitchen, not some tubed out "kitchen car"). The TVRM does this. I did notice they use warming boxes in the kitchen so that they can prepare and store food ahead of time. The day I rode the food prep started around 1 pm for a first seating at 5 pm. Most of the appliances they have are either from the later days of Southern service or are in place replacements - no massive changes.

Of course our twist is to run the original cars on part of their original route. I think some nights we would offer selections straight from the Erie/DL&W/EL menu but some times do themes or special guest chefs. I have talked to one well known "celebrity" chef as well as one of the culinary magazines and both are excited about the possibility of working on a dining car. It will be a delicate balance but we aim to do a living recreation while attracting a general audience.

I'm sorry, I was counting preserved lines that never stopped electric operation. Fox River, Ill., Scranton. Pa., Rio Vista Jct., Calif., and others did use Diesel without trolley wire for a while, and Arden, Pa. had a few years of lack of electricity for propulsion in the wires. Did either of Arden's 2 original Pittsburgh Rwys. cars ever run on the Museum's line before the Museum started?
S. F. & C. is of a group that has rebuilt an abandoned trolley line and returned its original cars.

There are (were) at least two replica canal boat operations in Ohio that I can think of off the top of my head. Both of them operate on what is left of the Ohio and Erie Canal (Marietta to Cleveland). One definitely still operates at Canal Fulton, and there was one operating at Roscoe Village in Coshocton. I know that the operation at Canal Fulton is on either it's third or fourth generation replica boat - they eventually rot out - so they become artifacts in their own right. There also is a regular canal boat demonstration in the turning basin at the Canal Visitor's Center in the Cuyahoga Valley National Park (a stop on the CVSR - so this is germane to RR preservation after all). I don't know what the NPS is using for their demonstration, I just know that the NPS guides on the train talk about it.

You think it's tough being a fan of railroad preservation in this day and age, imagine being a canal fan. Not a whole lot of artifacts preserved or operating. Sort of like being an airship fan (there is a Lighter-Than-Air Society, it's based in Akron and there is some cross-pollination with the railroad preservation/fan community), not much out there in that category either, and just try and get a ride on one! There actually is some convergence between airships and railroads in Akron. The CVSR Canton train passes by the old Goodyear Airdock (1929, built for the construction of the rigid airships Akron and Macon, as well as the building of the NH train The Comet). Occasionally the Goodyear blimp Spirit of Goodyear (N3A) and kept in the Akron area can be seen near the Airdock (like two weekends ago for the Soap Box Derby), and if you're really lucky can be photographed in the same frame with the CVSR train and the Airdock. This past weekend the MetLife blimp was in town as a TV platform for the Bridgestone/Firestone Golf Tournament and was photographed with the CVSR train by at least one fan I know. I'm looking for a trifecta next month - the Airdock, the blimp, and NKP 765 in the same shot!

Boy, this thread sure got "hijacked". So, I'll throw in my 2 cents. First of all, isn't there a replica canal boat at Metamora, Indiana on the Whitewater Valley? And isn't there also one at Grand Rapids, Ohio of the Toledo, Lake Erie & Western?

And finally, as for the Goodyear Airdock at Akron, I often think that if someone would build an operating replica of one of the giant U.S. Navy rigid airships, boy would they ever come (tourists that is)! They could even replicate the railroad "system" that was used with these monsters!

Les

The SD40-2, the SD80MAC or AC6000, The F40PH, spine cars, aluminum coal hoppers, well cars, 89' Auto Racks, the Acela, I could go on... (well, maybe not as important as the space program, but just as important as most of the steam that's floating around, from a historic perspective anyway).

Just because it's not your area of interest doesn't mean it isn't historically significant.

There was also a time when people thought "E7s? Why should we keep one of them, they surely aren't historically significant." Now try and find one.

Not sure if I actually got both in the same photo, but the Goodyear blimp based in Southern California was flying around the LA harbor area one day when I was visiting the San Pedro Waterfront Red Car line. Two of the San Pedro cars are 21st-century replicas of Pacific Electric 500-class suburban cars, but the third is highly-modified LA Pacific/PE interurban 1058, which reportedly still has some "historic fabric" from 1907. Also, they run (at least in part) on a former PE line.

Ed has just brought the biggest problem in preservation to light. Most of the stuff that has been preserved other than steam was saved because of its likeability rather than just its historical significance. You might see one group save 4 or 7 F units while overlooking other locomotives from the same road. It has been mentioned here before how GEs are being overlooked while even 2nd generation EMDs are making their way into collections. "Who needs to save a U28B, there are still some in service on short lines". Or better yet, "we don't need to worry about P30CHs, Amtrak still uses them". A lot of this has to do with who was in charge at the museum during periods of acquisition.
Also how many freight cars are overlooked because they are "run of the mill" stuff? Not everything rode the rails on a Zephyr or Limited. It shouldn't just be up to tourist railroads to preserve freight cars just because they provide revenue through charters. They tell the story of the evolution of the American Railroad through their own evolution. So far we seem to have ignored the early history of TOFC/COFC railcars and the trailers that rode them. Yes those trailers are a big part of that story. Otherwise it is just another flatcar with some weird fixtures on them.
Going forward I think it is prudent to follow something akin to what most state motor vehicle departments consider classic and historic. If a car is a classic after 25 years and can receive special registration and plates then why should be waiting 30, 40 or 50 years to try and save something that has just about the same economic life cycle. We seem to have hit a wall in railway preservation where we are reluctant to save stuff from the 60's onward yet when most of the stuff currently in museums was saved they were less than 40-50 years old.

This is just some food for thought from someone studying preservation and all of its oddities.

Kevin O

I did not mean to suggest that none of this stuff was worthy of preservation. The message was that most of it is not technically "historic." My PowerBook G3 is obsolete, but it is not historic. Yet.

As for what to collect...that is up to the mission statement and collection policy of your institution. Hopefully we have learned by now that it is better to plan for preservation rather than simply acquiring things because they are available. This is yet another topic that has been beaten to death here, but what do you hope to accomplish by saving all of this stuff? What do you need to illustrate the facet of history you are interested in preserving for the public's benefit?