I've been giving the equivalent of a bottle of booze each month to the T1 Trust for years.

For me, the uniqueness of a PRR T1 locomotive is the most important reason.

I remember when the project was first posted on this list - all kinds of derision, insults and "they are scammers - stay away" flooded the responses.

In the beginning, knowing that the folks involved here were familiar with the folks who succeeded in new build steam in Great Brittan was helpful. They started posting an overall plan of action, IIRC my first contribution was for a blueprint drawing scan or two. Got the coffee mug.

Over time, seeing steel and aluminum taking shape increased confidence that a multi year project was well on the way.

Recently I attended the frame display and dinner open house in Altoona.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48052

It's good to put a face to a name, not to mention listen to a person who is confident in talking about the ongoing details. Got the T shirt.

Is it really shocking to learn that the meme of "Success begets Success" is true??

3713 has the odorous stench of failure. Hopefully the new team can get the brakes released and on the right track. While I understand the reasons for folding Steamtown into the National Park Service, perhaps in hindsight, the Smithsonian Institution group would be a better choice.

There's nothing stopping you from starting the same path for a NYC Hudson or Niagara or PRR Q2. Whatever project you want. Have at it.

Have You All already forgotten about the rotting hulk of AT&SF 3463?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48121

Brian Helfrich

Edit:

The nice google folks tell me the population of the UK is about ~ 68 Million.. They have - what - four new build steam engines? plus a bunch of working heritage steam qualified to run on mainlines.

The population of the US of A is ~ 340 million. Plus ~ 39 million Canadians.

Don't DARE tell me that 5550 is sucking the North American continent dry of money for your favorite locomotive restoration or new build.

Since I formulated a hypothetical designed to elicit individual decision making under an imposed constraint to illustrate the idea of opportunity cost. It's a merely a thought experiment, not unlike having an economy that produces only guns and butter.

Choodude provided his reasons for being a 5550 donor, although I'm as much interested why a person doesn't donate to some other project.

Many small donations are essentially routine impulse purchases, driven by emotional appeals, the charitable impulse, cause affinity, proximity and not seen as a choice between objectives, i.e. the spare change jar at the mini-mart (which also provides the benefit of relieving you of the weight and pocket lint of loose change)

However, the larger the donation, the less you can ignore the economic laws and the more it becomes an "extensive search" expenditure that involves not only a choice of expenditure, but a choice between possible expenditures. It might be a stretch of an analogy, but it sort of like for travelling 60mph you can ignore relativistic effects, but at .60C, not so much.

It's easy to express an opinion about filthy lucre when none is involved; hence for every purveyor of doom-porn telling me the financial system is going to collapse in the next six months; my answer is, so you are loaded up on long put options, right? Conversely the ones telling me the cornucopia runneth over, show me your long call options.

"Money doesn't talk, it screams"

Some insite:

ICRR #790 - This locomotive is not only worn out, it's rusted out as well. The tender tank has many MANY holes rusted through the tank sides, top and bottom, which would warrent a total tank replacement. Inside baffels are rotted through at most of the points where they once attached to the floor. The boiler is also badly rotted out. During the multi loco asbestos abatement / cosmetic restoration project about 10 years ago, I did a good visual examination of things while the boiler and cylinders were stripped of their jacketing. I was shocked to see, and physically touch, the lower boiler tubes through a large hole that rotted clean through the bottom of the first course just behind the smokebox. This was most likely due to the wet asbestos and coal dust sitting against the boiler barrel as well as the large amount of rust and sediment that was resting on the inside of the course. Another item of concern were the two rather large patches on the front throat sheet just inboard of the front left and right corners. Why these were applied was not known, could be because of stress cracks, or did the rods let go and puch a hole through the sheet. It was brought up in a think tank meeting about restoring the 790, but the fact that a totally new tender tank and most likely a new boiler would be part of the project, the rule of historic preservation came up since these two origional and historic large items would end up in the scrap pile, goes against this rule. Also, the fact that it's a hand bomber wasn't like by the older train crews (most of whom are not longer with us)

#3713 - From the time the BLW #26 was put back in service until 2020, there was a huge amount of progress on this project. A full restoration plan was developed and accepted and aggreed upon by Steamtown and the historical society. Many key componants were purchased and made by contractors and in the Steamtown shops. Weekly, if not daily updates were publically posted on the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley Railroad Historical Society's webpage as well as the Steamtown Forum page (not the official SNHS page) more on that later. The historical society was key in rasing funds and procuring materials and componants to keep the project steaming ahead at full throttle. The goverment was also very helpfull with providing contracted funds for some of the larger priced items such as boiler repairs, a totally new tender tank, driver refubishment. etc. Everyone was very pleased with the progress that was finally happening with the 3713. Even the shop guys were getting excited that this project was moving along and they could see that this behemoth tht was taking up valuable real estate in the shop was the main focus. In 2019 there was a change in the winds. A new superintendant was assigned to SNHS and according to her, we were doing everything wrong. All progress posts were to be stopped immediately because SNHS was divulging "company secrets" and the person making the posts was going to not only lose his contracting license, his job, but could also be held personally liable for giving up these secrets. It was agreed that any progress posts were going to be posted on the official SNHS web page only after passing inspection by the superintendant. After numerous attempts of posting that were shot down, the person stuck his neck out and made a non descript, seasonal post about the weather and the cab of the 3713 and was given a final warning about posting, this person decided that is wasn't worth it and stopped all posting. In the mean time, there was an aggreement dispute between the historical society and the superintendant over the "NEW" was things were going to be done with the 3713. This made the progress next to impossible by turning over all control of the funds to the park, and all items / materials were now to go through the government contracting process. It was then decided (by this superintendant) that all work was to stop on the 3713 and the project would awarded to one contractor to finish the job in less than 2 years. The amount needed was calculated and the superintendant was positive that this amount would be awarded to SNHS to getting the project completed in 2 years - which never happened. Hopefully, work will continue in the near future - with regular updates.

In the mean time, the shop guys started working on some simple cosmetic restoration projects. The Fireless Locomotive (Now on display) the Bullard #2 (awating cab windows and final assembly) and the American Chemical tank car repaint and lettering (Still in the paint shop).

The coaches had been going through a lot of work as well. ABDW brake systems were installed on the 4 CNJ coaches as well as 1 Lackawanna trailer car. This was to help with the lack of parts now available for the UC systems. During the normal inspections of the coaches, the issue of the car ends rusting out was discovered and two new welded end assemblies were developed and made, awaiting installation. The ends of the other trailers will be done in the near future. The old Sharon couplers are feeling their age and a new coupler / draft gear system replacment is being developed.

NKP 514 - As some may know the locomotive was rewired, repowered, and the main generator was overhauled. The brake system was also updated to a partial #26L brake, posting.php?f=1&t=48169&mode=reply&d=1405#replacing the old #6. This is giving some hiccups that are being worked out, and a total #26L system is now being fitted.

EMC SW1 - Currently being totally rebuilt and upgraded by outside contractor

I hope this sheds some light on the subject(s)

Thank you very much for the clarification, Mr. Mowbray. Is it still felt that the work on 3713 can be completed in about 2 years, if the funding is raised and an outside contractor is used?

Thanks,
John

Interesting with the IC 2-8-0!
How bad is the MC 519?

Due to the fact that it is bleeding asbestos and the boiler jacket is falling off, a determination cannot be made of its condition at this time.

The 'first best use' of a boiler like that is to section it as a display of 'what's inside a locomotive boiler'. Use Bondo on the pits and paint different parts in cheerful colors, secure in the knowledge that you're preserving historic fabric for valid purposes.

I am tempted to say that sectioning a tender to show the internal structure might be interesting, too, if there is adequate room to display it at the museum or facility that would wind up with it.

As I recall, the thing that 'stalled' the 3713 restoration was that somebody who claimed to be a steam technician pulled the firebox apart, and then couldn't figure out how to drill the staybolt and syphon holes in the correct register. It does not seem to me that this is any greater an objective issue than rebuilding the firebox on 1361 to 'non-kludged' absolute standards, and the same people doing that work could surely be brought in on competitive bid as was done a few years ago (at Mr. Mowbray's request).

Steamtown already has a cutaway locomotive and tender on display. It is one of the best tools for explaining how a steam locomotive functions. So, doing that to another locomotive will not be permitted.


That is not what stalled the project. This issue with the holes on multiple firebox sheets, along with other issues, was brought to light while the work was being done, and the unknowing NPS assistant superintendant ordered the people who do know that they need to mind their own business if they wanted to keep thier jobs. When this unknowing person hurriedly retired after the sudden death of the actual superintendant, the historical society and official park managment were informed by park employees of what was happening. It was then decided to move the management of the project over to park service people that DO know what they are doing, can be on top of quality issues, and are aware of how the work sould be done. This is when the amount of work increased on the 3713 and the project really gained momentum. It was the sole decision of the last superintendant to stall the project.

I just can't get my mind off poor ol' CPR 4-4-4 No. 2929 mouldering away down there. I was just by a couple of lovely stretches of Ontario trackage the other day where, on either one, she could easily stretch her legs into the 80 mph range! Now wouldn't that be something!

I believe it was Ross Rowland who once opined, he'd love to see the "Jubilee" restored and go for a track speed record.

What has been allowed to happen to that specific locomotive is unbelievably shameful, as with 3337, to "better" CNR Mikado. Or frankly, all the outdoor equipment.

Wrong Jubilee. While it might be fair to consider 2929 as the better two-thirds of a Royal Hudson, it was the F2a 3000s -- think of a Milwaukee A class adapted for solid-fuel firing with a four-wheel trailing truck -- that would have been the speed-record candidates.

Not saving a roller-bearing-rod GS4 or a B&O EM-1 was a crime. Letting all the F2as be scrapped was a sin.

The clear speed-record candidate at Steamtown was Repton, and nobody Stateside appreciated her enough to care.

(Incidentally, before any carping jeremiads about 2929 having "inadequate tractive effort to pull excursion-length trains" starts again, there is a precedent in Southern Pacific practice in the early 1920s with several classes of very fast Atlantics... get a good feedwater heater working, and put a booster on the trailing truck. That would make the locomotive the moral equivalent of a six-coupled engine (like 3713) for many practical duties... with very little 'adaptive tinkering' with designed or historic fabric.)

The 2929 is rated for 26,000 pounds of TE, about the same as the BLW26. The 2317 is somewhere at 42,600 and the 3254 had that 53% that befuddled visitors painted on the cab.

Could the 2929 run an "excursion length" consist up the Pocono Main? Interpolating from the 2317's capacity to run six coaches up that grade with relative ease and eight with favorable conditions, let's say you are looking at 3-5 coaches. In my last active years up there, we were "high-fiving" anything over 200 passengers. That's 3-4 coaches. Keep in mind, anything more than 60 per coach gets cramped and one of the cars is going to be the CNJ combine for limited mobility accessibility, I think that car can seat 30-40.

However, the Pocono Main is filled places that can become treacherous with bad weather, especially during October, when there's condensation and leaves are falling on the rails. The question with any Steamtown locomotive isn't "can you run an X-Car consist", it's can you get a train started reliably around Myrtle Street (just east of the Nay Aug Tunnel) or at Winton (MP 127.7, I think, it's been a while since my last PC test) on a rainy cold day, when the leaves are knocking your coefficient of friction to hell and you need to heat the train.

Ultimately, given the dual mandate of Steamtown (preservation and experiental interpretation), attempting to do the latter with legacy power will always involves convex tradeoffs.

Had Steamtown not been formed as conspicuous "circenses" intervention and not politicized over petty parliamentary and pedantic reasons; its planners might have recognized the schizoid nature attempting to fulfill both missions with legacy assets.

In an ideal world, the existing locomotives and rolling stock would have been abated, stabilized and displayed and new construction equipment would have been procured that wouldn't be sidelined due obsolete components like couplers. Yes, A new construction engine designed to run at the 25-30 mph limits that govern Steamtown operations.

Yeah, yeah cost. Still way less than the cost of one of our premier hangar queens that are apparently endangering the production of the "air dominance" replacement of the F-22 fighters whose limited flight hours are being conserved through the acquisition of new variant, last generation F-15's.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/costlies ... gler-96vre

Preservation is not in conflict with operation. Historical Operations only enhances preservation - because it preserves the entire experience including the maintenance.

Only my opinion of course :)

If you want the historic maintenance experience, you have two problems:

You have to voluntarily do away with a myriad of modern things:

Digital photography, CAD/CAM, CNC machines, water jets, the stuff you spray on metal to reveal cracks, oxygen scavengers and other forms of water treatment, etc.

Then there's the things you must do without:

Obsolete components (Sharon Couplers); Obsolete or limited source brake systems, cast iron shoes, lost technical knowledge.

Any modern operation is an approximation or interpretation of the past. The coaches with the new ABDW brake valves are operated differently than ones with P or UCs. One can state that the availability of parts, more reliable operation and the relative inconspicuousness to a rider justify the departure from complete authenticity. Similar decisions were already made in favor of non-historical roller bearings, composite bake shoes and Peabody hand brakes.

Little by little, your restoration eventually becomes a replica, and gradually more a rat rod than a restoration.

To be clear, I am not axiomatically opposed to operating historic artifacts.

However, if you have a charter, commission, expectation or mandate to make provide the visiting public with the regular experience of operating steam and we are conducting a thought experiment where you can start anew; I would rather the objective be to have a fleet of as true to authentic as possible reproductions ; rather try to resolve the problems detailed by Mr. Mowbray.

Keep in mind that Steamtown hasn't had road steam since 2012. Most of individuals who were qualified to operate steam on the road have retired or passed on. I'm fairly certain that that the two youngest are now over 50.

Until 2002, there were almost 200 trips per year, plus the "shuttle". Now with 25 trips off premises scheduled (less cancellations) there's significantly less training time. Who's going to run the 3713, if there's no qualified engineers or fireman.