Thanks for the update, Topfuel! Thanks also for the clarification on the PAR #2397!

SP-AMTK Numbering Discrepancy:

I'm still trying to clarify the number discrepancy of ex-SP cars that were sold to Amtrak in 1973 and numbered in the #75xx-series. Different sources give different cars to different #75xx numbers, one consequence of which is I don't know which 1949 Shasta Daylight coach became Amtrak #7511 (later SW #511 "Stanislaus")!

Just to demonstrate the issue, here's the 2 complete listings of ex-SP #75xx-series cars from 2 different sources:

"Amtrak by the Numbers" gives this listing:

SP Shasta Daylight coffee shop-tavern #10317 to coach #2241 to AMTK #7500 retired 1976 to SW #500 "San Joaquin"
SP parlor #3002 to coach #2242 to AMTK #7501 retired 5/1975
SP parlor #3003 to coach #2243 to AMTK #7502 retired 5/1977
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2382 to AMTK #7503 retired 3/1976
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2383 to AMTK #7504 retired 11/1977 to office in South San Francisco
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2384 to AMTK #7505 retired 11/1977
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2385 to AMTK #7506 retired 1976
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2387 to AMTK #7507 retired 11/1977 to SW #507 "Shasta"
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2389 to AMTK #7508 retired 5/1975 to private owner as CBRX #2389
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2392 to AMTK #7509 retired 11/1977 to private owner
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2395 to AMTK #7510 retired 1976 to SW #510 "Tuolumne"
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2397 to AMTK #7511 retired 11/1977 to PAR #2397 "Shasta Springs"
SP Golden State coach #2401 "Golden Flake" to AMTK #7512 retired 11/1977
SP coach #2424 to AMTK #7513 retired 9/1975
SP coach #2439 to AMTK #7514 retired 1976 to Kern County Museum in Bakersfield
SP coach #2486 to AMTK #7515 retired 8/1976 to Antelope Valley Model RR Club in Lancaster, CA
SP coach #2487 to AMTK #7516 retired 5/1977 to Purdy Company to Evelyn Mills-Rocklin Transportation Center to Ed Purvis to Donald Krause-Rocklin Train Depot in Rocklin, CA
SP coach #2488 to AMTK #7517 retired 11/1977
SP coach #2492 to AMTK #7518 retired 5/1977
SP coach #2493 to AMTK #7519 retired 11/1977
***No entry for AMTK #7520***
SP Daylight articulated coach #2416-#2417 to AMTK #7521-#7522 retired 11/1977
T&NO Sunbeam articulated coach #506-#507 to SP #2455-#2456 to AMTK #7523-#7524 retired 11/1977
***No entry for AMTK #7525***
SP Coast Daylight articulated coach #2457-#2458 to AMTK #7526-#7527 retired 5/1977
SP Coast Daylight articulated coach #2463-#2464 to AMTK #7528-#7529 retired 11/1977
SP Coast Daylight articulated coach #2467-#2468 to AMTK #7530-#7531 retired 11/1977 to CWR #2467-#2468 to SWKR #2467-#2468 to PAR #2467-#2468
SP Coast Daylight articulated coach #2469-#2470 to AMTK #7532-#7533 retired 5/1977

"Amtrak by the Numbers" lists 2 additional SP coaches that were purchased in 1973 which did not receive #75xx-series numbers:

T&NO parlor #701 to SP #3001 to coach #2238 to AMTK (no number) retired 11/1973
The second listing is SP #2389!, which is also listed as AMTK #7508! (retired 5/1975 to private owner CBRX #2389). The second listing of SP #2389 also has a retirement date of 5/1975! My thought is that it could actually be SP #2398 (last 2 digits got flipped). SP #2398 was also a Shasta Daylight coach.

The other source has this listing:

SP Shasta Daylight coffee shop-tavern #10317 to coach #2241 to AMTK #7500 to SW #500 "San Joaquin"
SP parlor #3002 to coach #2242 to AMTK #7501
SP parlor #3003 to coach #2243 to AMTK #7502
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2382 to AMTK #7503
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2383 to AMTK #7504 to office in South San Francisco
***No entry for AMTK #7505***
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2384 to AMTK #7506
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2385 to AMTK #7507 to SW #507 "Shasta"
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2387 to AMTK #7508
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2389 to AMTK #7509 to private owner as CBRX #2389
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2392 to AMTK #7510 to SW #510 "Tuolumne"
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2395 to AMTK #7511 to SW #511 "Stanislaus"
SP Shasta Daylight coach #2397 to AMTK #7512 to PAR #2397 "Shasta Springs"
SP Golden State coach #2401 "Golden Flake" to AMTK #7513
SP coach #2427 to AMTK #7514
SP coach #2439 to AMTK #7515 to Kern County Museum in Bakersfield
SP coach #2486 to AMTK #7516 to Antelope Valley Model RR Club in Lancaster, CA
SP coach #2487 to AMTK #7517 to Purdy Company to Evelyn Mills-Rocklin Transportation Center to Ed Purvis to Donald Krause-Rocklin Train Depot in Rocklin, CA
SP coach #2488 to AMTK #7518
SP coach #2492 to AMTK #7519
SP coach #2493 to AMTK #7520
SP Daylight articulated coach #2416-#2417 to AMTK #7521-#7522
T&NO Sunbeam articulated coach #506-#507 to SP #2455-#2456 to AMTK #7523-#7524
***No entry for AMTK #7525***
SP Coast Daylight articulated coach #2457-#2458 to AMTK #7526-#7527
SP Coast Daylight articulated coach #2463-#2464 to AMTK #7528-#7529
SP Coast Daylight articulated coach #2467-#2468 to AMTK #7530-#7531 to CWR #2467-#2468 to SWKR #2467-#2468 to PAR #2467-#2468
SP Coast Daylight articulated coach #2469-#2470 to AMTK #7532-#7533

Can anyone clarify the discrepancy?

According to David Coscia's list of surviving SP passenger cars, Sierra Western Railroad Company owned 2 additional cars not already discussed:

Daylight Coach SP #2353 was built for the Coast Daylight in 1954 by P-S in Lot #6940 to Plan #7571B as a 48 seat coach in Class 83-C-5. To Amtrak #4841. Retired 1979. To Sierra Western Railroad Company as SW #541 for use on Eureka Southern-North Coast Daylight excursions on the Northwestern Pacific. After NWP washouts and end of operations, sold to private owner.

Tavern Lounge SP #2985 "Golden Outlook" was built for the Golden State in 1949 by P-S in Lot #6806 to Plan #7580 with 39 lounge seats and a barber shop in Class 83-L-1. To Sierra Western Railroad Company for use on Eur. Sou.-North Coast Daylight excursions on the NWP. After NWP washouts and end of operations, sold for use as an office in Santa Rosa, CA.

David Coscia's list of surviving SP passenger cars can be found here: http://webpages.charter.net/altalair/sp_equipment.html

In addition, I know of 10 additional cars not previously discussed in this thread that were owned either by Sierra Western Railroad Company or Great Western Tours:

Super Dome MILW #53 (P-S 1952, Lot #6908, Plan #7635) with 96 seats. Sold to CN in 1964 as #2401 "Athabasca". Painted in CN Black & White. Renumbered to #2701. Sold to VIA Rail as #2701. Sold to Great Western Tours in 1983. Sold to Rail Travel Associates as RTAX #53 for use on the Golden Arrow. Painted in MILW Maroon & Orange. Sold to C&NW as #421 "Powder River". Painted in C&NW Green & Yellow. To UP via merger in 1996. Used on a limited number of trips, including Operation Lifesaver. Was not repainted into UP Armour Yellow, Signal Red & Harbor Mist Gray. Sold to NCDOT as #400301 "Mount Mitchell". Painted in Amtrak Phase III. Sold the to Friends of the 261 in 2006 as NSRX #53. Repainted back into MILW Maroon & Orange with "Super Dome" below the windowband and "Milwaukee Road" in the letterboard, both in Gold with "Hiawatha" emblems. Amtrak registration #800862.

Business Car UP #126 (P-S 1956) to Great Western Tours as GWT #126 "Redwood" to private owner as #300 "Silver Foot". Amtrak registration #800279

4DB-4C-2DR Sleeper C&NW "Imperial Drive" (P-S 1942, Lot #6668, Plan #4069H) to William W. Kratville-Autoliner Corporation and remodeled to business car as ALC #100. To Great Western Tours as "Happy Hollow". To John Kirkwood-Rail Ventures as RVIX "Yerba Buena". Amtrak registration #800344.

4DB-4C-2DR Sleeper UP "Imperial Sands" (P-S 1942, Lot #6668, Plan #4069H) to William W. Kratville-Autoliner Corporation to Great Western Tours to Railcar Classics of America. Amtrak registration #800143.

11DB Sleeper UP #1502 "Placid Harbor" (P-S 1956, Lot #6958, Plan #4198) to Amtrak #2261. Retired 7/1981. Sold to Great Western Tours.

Semi-Articulated Kitchen Dormitory-Diner UP #5106 (AC&F 1953, Lots #3814-#3811). Renumbered to UP #5112-#5113. Sold to Great Western Tours in 1968. To Sierra Railroad #112-#113 (was that actually Sierra Western #112-#113?). To Western Rail Services to Indiana Railroad as INRD #112-#113 to Sunday River Ski Train to Cape Cod Central. Sometime during the GWT-Sierra-INRD-Sunday River timeframe the cars carried the names "Nomad" and "Adventure" respectively. To British Columbia Railroad as BCOL #1740 "D'Arcy"-#1741 "Strathnaver". To American Orient Express as "Vancouver"-"Jasper". Stored at Fort Lupton, CO. Sold to unknown party. Amtrak registration #800764-#800765.

Full Dome Lounge Coach AT&SF #511 (Budd 1954, Lot #9646-129) with 103 seats. To Auto Train in 1971 as AUT #523. Sold to Great Western Tours in 1981 as GWT #523 "Donner Pass" for use on Eur. Sou.-North Coast Daylight excursions on the NWP. Received Daylight paint in the letterboard and windowband. Sold to Holland America Westours in 1986 as WTMC "Nenana" for use on Alaska Rail Tours. Sold to Iowa Pacific-San Luis & Rio Grande in 2007 as SLRG #511 "Scenic View". Amtrak registration #800124.

Ranch Car GN #1245 "Whitefish Lake" was built for the Mid-Century Empire Builder in 1950 by AC&F in Lot #3445 with 14 seat counter, 12 seat dinette, 18 seat lounge. To BN. To Amtrak #8153. Retired 7/1981. Sold to Sierra Western RR Co. as SW #153. Was not repainted into Daylight colors. Most likely used as a parts source for SW #151 (GN #1242 "Hidden Lake") and SW #156 (GN diner #1156 "Lake Pepin"). After NWP washouts and end of operations, stored in Willits, CA, still in faded Amtrak Phase I paint. To Roots of Motive Power Museum in Willits. Now open to the public in near-original condition!

Steam Heat Car GN #10 was built as GN F3B unit #354B by EMD in 1947. Converted to a steam heat car in 1965. To BN as #HC10. To Amtrak #1910. Renumbered #660. Sold 6/1984 to Sierra Western RR Co. as SW #660 "Hercules". Was not repainted into Daylight colors. After NWP washouts and end of operations, stored in Willits, CA, still in Amtrak Phase I? paint.

4 questions:

Does anyone know the name SW #541 carried?

Does anyone know the number "Golden Outlook" carried while under SW ownership?

Which, if any, of the GWT cars listed above (other than AT&SF #511) were used on the Eureka Southern excursions?

Were there any other cars in the Sierra Western-Great Western Tours fleet for use on the Eureka Southern excursions?

Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Quick question I do have relating to these cars...in the 1982/1983 time period, at least three of these cars were leased to the McCloud River and used on a small handful of excursions behind their #25. The cars were painted a Northern Pacific-esque two-tone green at the time. The cars I know were in McCloud were the #510 (Tuolomne) and the #500 (San Joaquin). The third car appears to be the #507 (Shasta), though it could have been the #511 (Stanislaus) as well. Anyone know for sure?

I vaguely remember hearing a story once explaining why they were painted NP before getting the Daylight colors, but I don't remember specifics at this late date.

Where else did these cars see service between the time Sierra Western bought them and when the Worlds Fair Daylight came along?

Jeff Moore
Elko, NV

I'm still trying to clarify the number discrepancy of ex-SP cars that were sold to Amtrak in 1973 and numbered in the #75xx-series. Different sources give different cars to different #75xx numbers, one consequence of which is I don't know which 1949 [i]Shasta Daylight[/i] coach became Amtrak #7511 (later SW #511 "Stanislaus")!

Can anyone clarify the discrepancy?[/quote]


The "Amtrak by the Numbers" list is incorrect.

[quote="Rainier Rails"]According to David Coscia's list of surviving SP passenger cars, Sierra Western Railroad Company owned 2 additional cars not already discussed:

Daylight Coach SP #2353 was built for the [i]Coast Daylight[/i] in 1954 by P-S in Lot #6940 to Plan #7571B as a 48 seat coach in Class 83-C-5. To Amtrak #4841. Retired 1979. To Sierra Western Railroad Company as SW #541 for use on Eureka Southern-[i]North Coast Daylight[/i] excursions on the Northwestern Pacific. After NWP washouts and end of operations, sold to private owner.

Tavern Lounge SP #2985 "Golden Outlook" was built for the [i]Golden State[/i] in 1949 by P-S in Lot #6806 to Plan #7580 with 39 lounge seats and a barber shop in Class 83-L-1. To Sierra Western Railroad Company for use on Eur. Sou.-[i]North Coast Daylight[/i] excursions on the NWP. After NWP washouts and end of operations, sold for use as an office in Santa Rosa, CA.

David Coscia's list of surviving SP passenger cars can be found here: [url]http://webpages.charter.net/altalair/sp_equipment.html[/url]


I don't know how those 2 cars ended up on that list, but Sierra Western never owned either of them.

Also, note that former 1949-built SP Shasta Daylight coach 2387 (Amtrak 7508) was also owned by GWT/Sierra Western after acquisition from a private owner in Mojave, CA. The interior had been mostly gutted and presumably was bought for parts. It was painted in the 2 tone green scheme but they never ran it. Scrapped June 2008 at Willits, CA account minor fire damage.

GWT/Sierra Western also owned 2 ex-UP lunch counter diners, ex-Amtrak 8341 and 8342, built by SLC in 1959, and ex-NP diner 455, built by PS in 1947. All stored at Willits, CA and were never used. The NP diner was painted in the two tone green scheme. All 3 sold to Jon Clark and still stored in Willits.

Does anyone else recall the episode of the show "Moonlighting" where a murder mystery takes place on a train, and it's an all-daylight consist, but lacking the SP road name? I always laughed when they'd show that on syndication...

PAR is Pacific Railroad Society, Inc. of the greater Los Angeles area. The car is not listed on the Society's website.

However, when the car was acquired arrangements were made to move the car to Orange Empire Railway Museum for renovation work. OERM's website lists the car(s) and notes that it is owned by Pacific Railroad Society. The car bodies are off the trucks and the trucks disassembled for overhaul. The trucks may have been reassembled; but, still need to be placed under the bodies.

A couple of updates:

The Cascade Club triple-unit kitchen/dormitory - dining room - bar lounge car (1949, Cascade) previously owned by Golden Gate Railroad Museum (SP 10280-10282) has been owned by the Pacific Locomotive Association at the Niles Canyon Railway since 2006. While a lot has happened on this car in the past few years, there is much work remaining.
http://www.cascadeclub.org/Cascade_Club/History.html

SP Articulated Chair Car 2473-2474 (1941, Coast Daylight) has been owned by the PLA since 2008, and is currently operational. Interior restoration is well underway, but continues. The exterior of the car has been restored to the 1960s tomato-stripe scheme.
[url]
http://www.ncryfleet.org/NCRY_Coach_Yar ... _Home.html[/url]

Thanks, Topfuel, for the updates on the cars used for the World's Fair Daylight, for the clarification concerning the ex-SP cars in the Amtrak #75xx-series, for the information on the two cars that Sierra Western didn't own (#2353 & #2985), and for the information on the four other cars that were on their roster (#2387, #8341, #8342, and #455)!

Thanks, Jeff, for the information on the Sierra Western cars that were used on the McCloud River Railroad!

Thanks, Brian, for the information regarding the #2467-#2468!

Thanks, Randolph, for the update on the #10280-#10282 and the #2473-#2474! Great work being done there at Niles Canyon!

Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

What kind of car is that just ahead of the observation car?


Observation car on the "World's Fair Daylight, May 5 1984, approaching Algoma Oregon along Upper Klamath Lake. by Dan Haneckow, on Flickr


SP #4449, June 24 1984, Wocus Oregon by Dan Haneckow, on Flickr

Sierra Western RR Co. (SW) 48 seat diner #156 Lake Pepin, built in 1948 by P-S in Lot #6768 to Plan #7540 as SLSF #650 Alexander Doniphan for the Texas Special (originally 36 seats). Sold to GN in 1966 as #1156 Lake Pepin. Sold in 1979 to Sierra Western.

The Alexander Doniphan/Lake Pepin is currently listed on Ozark Mountain Railcar:

http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/detail.asp?id=1512&n=Frisco-Dining-Car--Alexander-Doniphan-NEW

As are four of the Daylight chairs acquired by Jon Clark in 2011:

http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/detail.asp?id=1513&n=Southern-Pacific-quotShastaquot-Coaches

83-C-5 #2355 (1954, AMTK #4842/SW #542 Sonoma)
83-C-5 #2358 (1954, AMTK #4844/SW #544 Mendocino)
83-C-1 #2392 (1949, AMTK #7510/SW #510 Tuolumne)

The fourth car is listed as #2396, which is incorrect, as the #2396 was retained by SP, renumbered to #222, later instruction #219, and is now owned by CSRM.

The fourth car should be 83-C-1 #2395 (1949, AMTK #7511/SW #511 Stanislaus)

The two 1954 chairs are listed as steel with OSH trucks, while the two 1949 chairs are listed as aluminum with ISH.

".....As are four of the chairs acquired by Jon Clark in 2011:

[url]http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/detail.asp?id=1513&n=Southern-Pacific-quotShastaquot-Coaches[/url]

83-C-5 #2355 (1954, AMTK #4842/SW #542 Sonoma)
83-C-5 #2358 (1954, AMTK #4844/SW #544 Mendocino)
83-C-1 #2392 (1949, AMTK #7510/SW #510 Tuolumne)

The fourth car is listed as #2396, which is incorrect, as the #2396 was retained by SP, renumbered to #222, later instruction #219, and is now owned by CSRM.

The fourth car should be 83-C-1 #2395 (1949, AMTK #7511/SW #511 Stanislaus)

The two 1954 chairs are listed as steel with OSH trucks, while the two 1949 chairs are listed as aluminum with ISH."


The ad is correct as listed. The fourth car that is for sale IS the former SP 2396, also owned by Jon Clark and acquired from CSRM in 2011. The 2396 wasn't part of the World's Fair Daylight "All Daylight Consist". Former SP 2395 is owned by Mr. Clark but is not for sale. It is stored in the City of Commerce, CA.

Thanks, Topfuel, for the correction!

Jeff--

Besides the #500 San Joaquin (#10317/#2241) and #510 Tuolumne (#2392), the two other SW Daylight chairs painted in NP Loewy Two-Tone Green were the #507 Shasta (#2385) and #508 (name unknown) (#2387).

SW #507 Shasta in NP Loewy paint, Stockton, June 1980: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3684683 (Jerry LaBoda photo)