That PCB cleanup doesn't sound like it would be very good for the switchgear and mechanical internals. Which G's did this happen to?

One the other hand, the ship museums have not had a huge problem with PCBs and asbestos. In general, the levels are pretty low to almost nothing. Even the ships in the ghost fleets are not all the bad, actually.

Yes, which GG1s got this treatment? Did their owners somehow annoy the EPA?

--
Will

I am surprised, then, that you did not see just how low tech transformer production really gets, when you boil it down.

Certainly it is possible for a well stocked small machine shop to have a 4 foot sheet metal shear for cutting the laminations, and a way to cut and weld the thicker steel sheets for the transformer case. Maybe a small crane or forklift to move around the pieces and mounting the bobbin for the windings. As far as a BIG lathe - remember this is not a precision tool, it is a coil winder - you could even make one out of scrap metal parts and wood. Baking can be done with a temporary structure in a parking lot or warehouse space. Sure, the construction will be slow and laborious, but this is not a real production facility with screaming customers. Perhaps that is shading your judgment.

I am not suggesting that this be a fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants operation. I am suggesting an engineering project, properly planned, documented, and so forth. This includes a real test regiment. Hipotting along the way is a no brainer - getting a professional 100 kV unit is pretty easy on the surplus market. Likewise, current and core testing can be done using homemade dummy loads, and perhaps a modified broadcast transmitter. 11 kV is really not that bad to insulate for - there are plenty of guys playing with voltages like this, and when they follow the rules, safe circuits are made.

Of course, this all assumes there is a way to get real 11 kV @ 25 Hz, independent of the NE corridor. And yes, if you have a way to generate that, you can give the transformer an even better test.

--
Will

Assuming a group did get a GG1 restoration project "off the ground", they might consider getting a nearby electric utility and possibly a nearby IBEW (Electrical Workers union) local involved. Some utilities encourage volunteer activities and might be persuaded to lend transformer repair facilities to the effort (doesn't hurt to ask; if they say yes, you have a valuable ally, if the answer is no, you haven't lost anything.) Magnetic signs honoring contributors could be applied for "unveiling" photo sessions and removed for "as-was" photos. I wouldn't bet the ranch on seeing a GG1 back in operation, but with the right people (among them some ace fund-raisers!), it's not impossible.

Why not cable the GG1 to an EMD M16 power generating car (yes, the prototype for the Lionel power generating car with the utility pole and the searchlight) with an AR10 installed in place of the 4160 volt commercial generator and do away with the need for a transformer altogether? Since the M16 looks like a boxcar and was designed to be handled like one in interchange, the lashup would not be at all inappropriate. Utility pole and searchlight are of course optional at extra cost, and be sure to paint the M16 in the appropriate Lionel graphics.

PC

To go back to the transformer issue, I AM very well aware of how simple transformers can be; I worked at a transformer factory for several years to make money for college back in the '70s. I started as a coil winder, filled-in in the final assembly and heavy hook-up department, worked in the vanish department, and ran the stacking department (laminations) for a spell.

I also spent a year recently at another plant that made rectifiers and exciters for synchronous motors, which got their power from (you guessed it-) transformers. One of the coil winding machines there was converted from an old engine lathe, hence the analogy. I have had a lot of hands-on experience with transformer manufacturing and installation.

What I took exception to was the "well-stocked home machine shop" phrase. I don't know about anyone else here, but I have never seen a "home machine shop" with such capabilites: Coil winder, shear for cutting laminations, LARGE varnish tank, LARGE oven, testing facilities, etc. I don't have a forklift or overhead crane at home, at least not that I've seen-

The transformer is relatively low-tech, but to build one, at least in a size suitable for running a GG-1, would be a big project to do in someone's basement or converted two car garage. Ah, I see "temporary structure in the parking lot or warehouse space", which now takes this project out of the "home machine shop".

Not to rain on anyone's parade, or get on anyone's foes list, but the x-fmr is NOT the big issue here: a search online, Thomas Register, or even the local phone book, should let one identify hundreds of sources for LARGE custom transformers; I can name a half dozen here in Central NJ.

What makes restoring a G-motor to operation a non-starter is many of the factors posted in previous posts on this and other threads; frame cracks, PCB remediation, lack of a place to really run it (i.e. RR "sponsorship"), liability and insurance issues, etc.

Greetings,

If there was a group formed for the purpose of producing a feasibility study to too see what might work, and what might not work, the associated costs, and if some one of the corridor operations would be willing to operate it and maintain it. And of course the first step would be funding the study.


Any of the N.E. corridor operators who might take a chance would be willing only if the unit had been 100 % rebuilt and there was some guarantee of the unit operating with some large amount of success.


What form of rebuilding would depend on the study results. Who or what group might be willing to take this on as fund raising project ? Which particular engine or engines would you study ? Are these available for the project ? What company or companies might actually do the work and certify it?


I'd take for examples, the U.P. Centennial unit that they had rebuilt and operate, heritage streetcar operations (both "new" and old equipment), steam engine rebuilds.... that are in some form of regular operation, not the once in a while operation.

Cheers--

Karl Johnson

Having spent a lot of time and Kodachrome on these, I guess I just don't share the sense of urgency to see one of them run again. Yes, they were great locomotives, but they got plenty of film exposed in recording their final days in operation, so much in fact that there is no way any more than a miniscule portion of that coverage will ever make into print. Does it really need yet another visit? I can see a lot of other equipment out there that is just as deserving of an operational encore, and that might be restored at much lower expense, be able to tour a much wider territory, and be more practical to operate.

PC

Or you cold just run it on 600VDC... and a lot of museums have overhead with that.

Okay, can someone drive a stake through this topic, fer gawd's sake?

Look, one last time, at least for the next four months (until the next clueless dweeb or newbie asks it once again):

IN THEORY, I could drop enough retrofit guts into a "sacrificial lamb" GG1 to get it to move somewhat under its own power under either 600VDC overhead or with a power car attached behind it.

FOR WHAT ENDS?

Such a unit could do little more than get itself out of its own way on the 2-3 operations able and willing to host such a monstrosity. It ain't gonna move fast, it ain't gonna make the right noises, and there probably isn't much for it to pull even at the Illinois Railway Museum.

As much as a PRR fan as I am, I would MUCH MUCH rather the energy and money expended towards such an endeavor be redirected towards ANY of the alternatives:

*PRR 1361;
*stabilizing and restoring various PRR cars at the Railroaders Memorial Museum;
*restoring any number of wooden or metal "chicken coop" trolleys scattered across the nation;
*ensuring a long-term OPERATING future for PRR E8's 5711 and 5809 (and their accompanying passenger cars), so we don't have a repeat of the horrendous shame of the former Blue Mountain & Reading HEP-equipped PRR E8 duo, 5706 and 5898;
*returning ANY good non-PRR equipment or rolling stock worthy of preservation to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania;
*more paint for the stuff already in the RR Museum of Pa.

Thats your list of priorities, but it may not be everyone's. If you no longer wish to participate in this thread then just don't read it any longer. But don't insist that the thread come to an end because you are tired of it.

I don't know why just a plain discussion of restoring a GG1 has to bring out such negative reactions from some. Gor "gawd's" sake, we're just tossing around ideas. Many of us are learning in the process and maybe one or two are getting ideas from all of this. There are enough Gs around and a few people with resources that could possibly give such a project a go if they so chose to do it.

Far be it from me to tell a lottery winner, Bill Gates, or Pete Waterman what to do with his money; it's still a somewhat free country for the time being. And without "dreamers," we would still have PRR 1361, SP 4449, et al rusting away in their respective parks, or never see two preserved British Rail Deltics passing each other on separate main line excursions at a speed of 95+ mph each.

But there's an enormous difference between, say, talking Amtrak and NJ Transit into repainting a still-operating G into PRR colors and getting a G that hasn't run for 25 years operating on a railroad that has seen 25 years of progress since then--or even getting a G operating on ANY standard-gauge trackage with overhead.

A difference in magnitude. A difference in environment. A difference in technology.

There are certain ideas in rail preservation where, barring someone willing to dump untold millions into a "black hole" shaped like a locomotive or railroad line (see the Ohio Central and the Grand Canyon RR), the potential return on investment of said proposal is so far into negative numbers that said ideas deserve nothing more than to be taken out back of the enginehouse and beaten into a molecular-level ooze. Restoration of a UP Big Boy has to be number one on this list; restoration of a GG1 to operation in the *current* operating environment on America's remaining electrified lines has to be a close second. Like proposing the overnight elimination of coal usage or oil imports, it's a grandiose idea that shows a fundamental detachment from reality of those proposing it, and thus indirectly discredits the field as a whole.

Put it another way: Look at what the saga of PRR 1361 has been since its removal from the Horse Shore Curve. Part of that is political; some of that is technical; some of that is the physical artifact itself being an unsuitable artifact for restoration. All of those potential pitfalls would be present in a GG1 operating restoration, unless something bizarre like Andrew Muller and Bennett Levin joining forces to put one on the Electric City operation in Scranton happens.

Can you imagine if someone managed to get 4935 (just pick any one) running on a round trip or two for the 50th anniversary NRHS Convention in Lancaster, Pa. in 1985, and then it spent the next 24 years disassembled and "under repair", being shuffled from place to place, to become such an enigma and albatross that no one dares even mention or suggest its presence at the 75th anniversary convention in 2010, except under the influence of alcohol poisoning or psychedelic drugs? Sadly, I propose that that's exactly what the situation would be........... because, sadly, there's a precedent that almost exactly fits that time frame..........

Maybe to recognize and honor the engineers from General Electric, Westinghouse, Square D, Allen-Bradley and the myriads of other electrical equipment manufactures, that spent a good part of their lives figuring out how to make this stuff actually work?

Do their efforts somehow not match up to the guys that came up with the paint schemes?

--
Will, the clueless dweeb

OK, maybe my phrasing is a little off - but I do not think by much. Certainly it is possible for someone to get a 4 foot sheet metal sheer into a home shop. Certainly it is possible to have a forklift or crane (I have the latter). Certainly it is possible to make a coil winder from essentially scrap materials. Certainly it is possible to make a tank and oven. And certainly it is possible to have some basic testing facilities.

Yes, I realize that there is way more involved with getting a GG1 restored than just the transformer.

One thing to consider - since the historic fabric of the original transformers is torn to shreds (or maybe even gone), a smaller replacement transformer could be made instead. Go for a 1000 KVA unit, rather than the original's 4something KVA. Sure, the locomotive would not be able to be such a brute anymore, but it could still haul around plenty for a museum.

--
Will

Could I offer a compromise?

How about just getting a GG1 fit for one of us to actually enter again? (Didn't they get 4800 fit for re-entry again, and wasn't that $100K or more from a governmental institution?)

And/or an "exploded view" model?