I think that's a lot of it, but in order to understand the role and relationship of a city agency that controls a water supply a great distance away from a city, this is a rather good article although long. See about page 35 for Ashokan. http://www.stroudcenter.org/research/pr ... erCity.pdf
That article also explains a lot on why NYCDEP has intensified their land control, not backed off one little bit over time, and it's not just terrorism concern.

I guess what I see, and have seen, is that this is really quite different from a usual state environmental protection department that sees the public access as some part of their mission; i.e. if the people can see and experience what needs to be preserved they will support it. Here, the mission is a lot more focused - defend the water supply and quality. And with their own police force.

Looking at the damage legacy from Irene this many years later it's hard to understand how that unbelievable level of inflow erosion debris and damage on the Esopus is 'accepted' and the railroad risk, no matter how extremely unlikely, essentially isn't, but that's the way it is. And at the basics, they also don't tolerate roads, cars, or people in general much more than they absolutely have to, or are told to.

There have to be other excursion railroads that have the misfortune to be located near something like this, but it really is essential to understand for the appreciation of the issues here. The only thing I've seen that maybe even compares would be crossing an indian reservation on a similar easement.

They seem to be not afraid of a trail to be nearby with people wandering about on it, let alone a railroad. If they are paranoid about a locomotive falling over spilling fuel, you change your motive power style. Go electric, get an electric powered engine with overhead or battery power...OR...change your perspective how you operate around the reservoir, get some trolleys, put up overhead or battery power, rail/trail it all, putting planks over the rails or safety crossing every so often, throw picnic tables around, have a trolley run streetcar style around it, picking up, disembarking passengers as you go. You make it controlled access for the trailer people, wanna walk it all you could, make it easier take the trolley, looks like a big reservoir to try to walk around. Perhaps you have some legal issues about removing the rails, so you -make- them useful.

Its not the only time an issue of like this is done, Chicago had the "L" with steam engines and smoke and the IC commuter with steam and the order goes out to electrify the deal, so it all gets electrified.

Brainstormng, add your own.

Ironically, steam could be more favorable in these circumstances. With a coal burner, in a derailment, specifically a catastrophic rollover (not likely at the relatively low speeds you would have on this road), the coal spills on the ground, but it doesn't really go anywhere. The rest is just water.

A wood burner would be even more benign. You could even say it was "green," using a renewable source as fuel!

Finally, there is biofuel, which should be usable by either a diesel or oil burning steam.

And what about that solar rail car in Hungary? How big a job would it be to build a few of those things?

Of course none of these would satisfy the trail crowd. They would really have fits about steam power.

Does anyone in Ulster County want the CMRR around?

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/general-new ... n-railroad

Phoenicia neighbors fear Empire State Railway Museum is cutting trees to build a rail yard for Catskill Mountain Railroad

By Jay Braman Jr., news@freemanonline.com

POSTED: 06/07/16, 3:41 PM EDT

ALLABEN >> Even though the Catskill Mountain Railroad has officially dropped plans to build a rail yard in Phoenicia following strong opposition from neighbors of the proposed location, those same neighbors say there’s work being done anyway that appears to be an effort to shift that rail yard onto property owned by the Empire State Railway Museum.

The museum, located on the south side of the tracks in Phoenicia along lower High Street, got approvals two years ago to build a large locomotive maintenance building next to the historic Station House the museum calls home.

On Monday, Anique Taylor, who lives across the street from the structure, appeared at the Shandaken Town Board meeting complaining that large trees are now being cut down to make more room for train storage.

“The museum we have always loved is now becoming a threat to the peace and enjoyment of the neighborhood,” said Taylor, reading from a prepared statement. “Over the past three days the Museum has cut down well over a dozen huge trees. I have spoken with a member of the Museum Board who says they are building a new rail to store trains and work on trains in the barn. They say the Railroad plans to also put in a rail and move in cars which sounds like an end run around what happened at the ZBA meetings. He says they want to be good neighbors. In the past they have been. But these new activities are being done without the permission or notification of the neighbors and is changing the whole character of the street and what it means to have a Museum there.”

As the town board listened, she went on to say that there are more and more rail cars being stored there. In addition to this and the tree cutting there is a row of huge cement girders.

“We are concerned,” she said. “We need your help to deal with the museum. The things they are doing that they never did before are not helpful to the neighbors or the Hamlet. I am here at the Town Board meeting to share the concerns of the neighbors on the street who have spoken with me and who are very concerned about this. We ask that the museum not undermine their own mission and success by turning their site into a construction site, factory and/or decaying rail yard.”

Supervisor Rob Stanley said he was made aware of the activity last Friday and that Code Officer Warren Tutt visited the site on Monday.

“I have not heard a report yet,” he said.

Stanley also said that the zoning and planning boards might get involved and that it appears the Museum at least needs a flood plain development permit, but all that will be determined by the code officer.

“It’s really in Warren’s hands,” he said.

Tutt could not be reached for comment.

Then maybe it's time to start moving the collection elsewhere in NY where it will be appreciated...

Collection? That's the problem with tourist railroads... they don't have collections. They have assemblages of... well, equipment, although some would call it junk, such as the potential new neighbors. I think the Empire State Railway Museum had best tread very carefully here.

I think the fat lady is singing her heart out. Sounds like the scrappers are sharpening their knives.

No. The tracks in Phoenicia will not be scrapped. Bids are out for operation.

A response from Paul LaPierre of the ESRM:

Typically, as with many articles relating to anything railroad, there was no contact by the reporter of this article with the Empire State Railway Museum regarding the work being done on our property. As the ESRM Board member overseeing the work let me assure one and all that yes, we are cutting trees and overgrown brush, removing accumulated flood debris, and cleaning up the remaining debris from the site of a trailer on a parcel at the west end of our property that we purchased three years ago. The purpose is to make way for two sidings on our property leading from our barn so that we, the ESRM, NOT the Catskill Mountain Railroad, can move ESRM cars(of which there are currently seven, one due for de-accesion), and our steam locomotive( recently moved from the former CMRR yard in Kingston) in and out of the barn as necessary for RESTORATION and DISPLAY. Operation of ESRM equipment on active track is not part of our mission as a New York State Chartered not-for-profit corporation. The locomotive currently resides on track formerly leased by the CMRR and they and we have until 31 July to be off that property---hence the urgency to lay a second track to the barn to accommodate the locomotive. As an aside, the locomotive is very unlikely to enter service under steam, the cost of such a restoration being beyond the resources of the ESRM, and the U&D rails being, as I understand it from those who know, too light for the weight of the operating engine.

On last Friday afternoon I encountered Anique Taylor and Aaron Bennett, of the County Environmental office on the ESRM property. After introductions I asked if they had questions concerning what was going on, and during a conversation lasting the better part of 45 minutes, they left, seemingly satisfied with my assurances that: (a) the ESRM was not doing work on County property (I showed Mr.Bennett the recently surveyed property markers), and (b) the tree cutting was a permitted activity on our property under the Town of Shandaken Zoning law. The concrete "girders" to which Ms. Taylor refers are "Jersey barriers", commonly seen along highway construction sites as temporary lane dividers. We are installing them below grade to protect the foundation of our Station building ( scoured out to a depth of almost ten feet by a storm several years ago) and the footings of the barn on the south side from being undermined during a flood event such as tropical storm Irene. They do not divert surface runoff from the course it currently follows, and their installation has been approved by Warren Hutt, the Town Building Inspector. Additionally, as the activity is not in the FLOODWAY, but rather in the fringe area of the floodplain as defined by the current flood plain map, there is no need for a floodplain development permit for this type of installation.

Ms. Taylor is someone who had been concerned three years ago when the ESRM applied to the Shandaken Planning Board for a building permit for the barn. Her concerns were with the proposed activities to be conducted on that site, i.e. railcar restoration, and were, to my understanding at the time, satisfied by our assurances that nothing environmentally illegal nor otherwise untoward would be happening on our site. Similar and other concerns expressed by the County Planning Board were addressed at the Town Zoning Board of Appeals hearing and were deemed sufficient for the ZBA to issue a super-majority decision in favor of the ESRM proposal. I reassured Ms. Taylor that we were NOT doing work on behalf of the CMRR, that it was only in support of ESRM activities as defined by our Charter. On Friday, as we parted, she seemed satisfied by my explanation and assurances that it is our desire to be not only a good neighbor, but an asset to the Town and the Village of Phoenicia.

Today I encountered the Town Supervisor at the Museum and learned that Ms. Taylor and Kathy Nolan had appeared at last night's Board meeting to object to the ESRM project, apparently on the grounds that it is in service to the needs of the CMRR. As stated above, that is NOT the case, and considering our conversation on Friday, I am surprised by Ms. Taylors' comments. She apparently is reacting under the influence of someone who would rather act on the presumption of a worst case scenario than by speaking directly with the party whose activities she finds objectionable. Certainly not unprecedented behavior when it comes to anything railroad related.

We have heard nothing from the "neighbors on the street," and, the neighbor on Station Road within whose view we are most immediate, had no objection when I explained to him what we were planning for the site. His primary concern was with regard to the deteriorating baggage car, which we can all agree is pretty unsightly, but which is intended for removal, either to an interested party for restoration, as a parts donor, or, worst case, to be scrapped. Additionally, according to the Supervisor, the nearest neighbor on Lower High Street has said that she prefers what we are doing to the unsightly, unkempt situation that has existed until now.

Once we have addressed the immediate need to move all of our equipment onto ESRM property we will begin restoration of screening vegetation between the ESRM tracks and the neighbors on Lower High Street. It is not our intention to create an eyesore at the expense of our neighbors' well being, and Ms. Taylor's concern that we will become a "construction site, factory, or decaying rail yard" are unfounded and ill-informed. Those who seek to criticize the activities of the ESRM and purport to know what our mission is as a New York State Chartered not-for-profit Corporation should at least have the courtesy and common sense to learn what that mission is, speak directly to those carrying out that mission, and believe that that entity is acting honorably and responsibly until they do otherwise.

I apologize for the length of this response, but it is necessary to correct the impression that the ESRM is behaving highhandedly and irresponsibly, and sadly, this is the second time I have had to respond to an ill-informed and poorly prepared article in this newspaper by this reporter, the first having to do with the construction of our car barn several years ago. I hope this clears up whatever misconceptions exist regarding our activities, and I invite any one with questions to connect the ESRM or me.

Does anybody in the Catskills like railroads? Sounds like the town where I live. Any time the City starts doing any type work, some busybody gets on Facebook and complains about it, even before they know the facts.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good complaint!

I have to agree. The politicians, developers and busybodies in that area will not stop griping until the last spike is scrapped.

Then they can find something else to whine about.

Which they will.

ESRM is in a tough spot because it seems to me that any locals see "railroad" work an automatically think its all lumped together with the CMRR especially when this museum is on that line. Hopefully the municipal and county politicians understand the difference.

> Does anybody in the Catskills like railroads?

I think the better question might be, "Why would anyone want a RR in the Catskills?" Really, this goes beyond the Catskills and applies to any number of museums or operations around the country.

In all honesty, how many of us would want an active RR track in our backyard or even within a block of our house? And if you take a house near an active track, what is its property tax rate today? What will its rate be once the tracks are gone? As with the value of the property, the taxes will go up as well. Try selling a house with a locomotive horn in the background. Good luck with that.

When it comes to politicians and environmentalists, you are not going to beat them head to head long term. Its a non-starter. Some how, working hand in hand may be the most logical approach and that may mean some significant changes to the equipment used in the operation, the type of operation, or changes to the collection itself if there is one.

In truth, no one wants a RR near their house. Its not just the Catskills. So, its up to us in the industry to show why its not a negative. And forget the argument that its good for the town or some sense of history. To most, this means nothing.

J.R. May

I was talking about the Catskill Mountain RR situation recently with an old friend of mine who, though not a railfan, is a frequent summer visitor to the area and is sympathetic to the railroad's plight. He expressed surprise at the idea that Phoenicia would be welcoming to the CMRR when Kingston was not, given Phoenicia's reputation as a community of artists and writers and wealthy second-home owners from New York City, in contrast to Kingston's status as a depressed post-industrial river town. As he put it, "Kingston needs the train more than Phoenicia does".

-Philip Marshall

This makes less and less sense all the time.

A fellow named Russ Bonk had this to say on his own Facebook page:



The Transportation Improvement Program cited by Mr. Bonk; project listings are in a section labelled "UCTC 2014-2018 Highway Project Listings," covering 14 pages, starting on the 33rd page of this document (based on the PDF page count--the document itself does not have a total page number labeling, though individual sections have them):

http://ulstercountyny.gov/sites/default ... 202014.pdf

Perhaps as much as anything else, this says a lot about how well the trail crowd has gotten itself organized. I'm not saying we should get as much taxpayer support as the trail people have been able to get--but a bit of their ability to influence policy wouldn't hurt.