I don't care to jump into the rabbit-hole of comparing toys/ models to actual railroad equipment. That's really an apple and oranges discussion.

For those not familiar, neither of the engines that I spoke of were "too far gone" to save within reasonable efforts. My point was how much the price appears to have been inflated. I was just curious we are past the days of the more traditional method of evaluating a locomotive starting with scrap or parts value +/- various other factors. In my experience you have 2 spending options when it comes to restoring a steam engine. You can spend as much as you want to... or more. So, the real trick comes down to how much you pay for it in the first place.

Let's say you buy an 0-4-0 for $40k you spend $10k getting it home to your shop and are able to do most of the work yourself, then you spend about $60k in materials and the work you have to contract out: How much is that engine worth beyond the obvious answer?(Whatever someone will pay for it) If you get less than $110k for it, your time was worth nothing and you're at a loss. If you sell it for $200k that covers 2000 man hours (roughly one work year for 1 person) at $45/hr. That still doesn't cover overhead or leave any room for profit. I can't even find a good car mechanic for $45/hr let alone a welder-machinist-pipefitter. Also... show me the guy who can restore an engine basically by himself in a year. Is a working 45 ton 0-4-0 worth upwards of a quarter million? What is a bank going to loan you on it?

Is it a possibility that we are seeing locomotive restorations taking place on a more individual level because people are unhappy with the politics of dealing with the groups that have operational engines?

This whole "restoration" argument is circular. An artifact is an artifact until it is changed to something other than its current state. A railroad artifact has a continuum of existence. It is only new or "as built"until the railroad changed it. If it has been changed 30 times during its life, it can be "restored" to potentially 31 different states. If it is non-operable, it can be restored to operation in any one of those 31 states, including its last before it went out of service. Restorers thus have a variety of choices, all of which are legitimate "restorations". And one is as good as the next if it fits the restorer's purpose. The "original fabric" is that which constitutes the artifact at the time of its retirement or restoration. That caboose might only have a small portion left of its original construction by the time it becomes an "artifact". In this way, "original Fabric" becomes a moving target and an impossible goal.

I agree hamster.

There's even another level... for example, Southern #4501 which was modified by adding a stoker and a feedwater heater which the #4501 never had but other Southern Mikados did receive so it was a restoration to what it might have gotten if it had stayed with the Southern.

While it may be a stretch, it's still more historically accurate than a locomotive like the #4960 which looks nothing like a CB&Q (I personally love the look of the Grand Canyon Locomotives... it's not a knock on them, just a fact.)

But it must be acknowledged that the 4967 is NOT a restoration in the sense of a museum. It is a restoration to a modern railroad situation. Its owner must modify it for his own use as surely as the CB&Q would have.

A locomotive is worth its ability to earn its keep and even more to contribute to the income of it's operator. Unless, of course, it is a hobby, or its costs are otherwise covered to allow for its use as an educational experience provider, etc........

It's cash value is limited only by those whose vision and resources allow.

I'm still curious what a brand new 0-6-0T would cost.

I think I rode behind that PM Pacific when it was 7.5" ga. in Ohio probably about 30 or more years ago. I remember it being a really well-running, fairly trouble-free loco, nicely detailed for a standard Little Engines Pacific.

The British preservationist are way ahead of the Americans when it comes to replica steam locomotives. Most everybody has heard of their Tornado; but there are several others.

The Ditcot Centre has at least three projects under way to re-create long gone Great Western steam classes.

And their Rail Motor project has restored the steam powered truck to power a body and trailer. Imagine a steam boiler with copper tubes!

The people with the two-foot rails (more or less) in Wales have built new locomotives and re-built others.

Here in the United States, the WW&F Railway Museum is building a replica of the WW&F #7 scrapped in the 1930s. They have a proven record in preservation.

Ted Miles, WW&F Member

In the UK it is perfectly possible to order a new two foot gauge 0-4-0, probably for about £120,000 - Statfold Barn or North Bay Engineering, will be happy to oblige and I think six or seven have been built, by them and by others.

The trouble is not many people have that kind of money to spare, and if it comes to a larger engine, have you got the drawings, do the comply with modern requirements, what are the material specifications, are those materials available. On the Tornado project the original spec for some of the components was simply "Best Yorkshire Iron". Doncaster Works knew exactly what that was 70 years ago, but the men who knew are no longer around!

One of the less ambitious new build projects is the BR Standard 3 2-6-2T based at the Severn Valley Railway; the last time I looked they were at the rolling chassis stage and working well. Their estimate is £750k, but that excludes an awful lot of skilled volunteer work and the resources of a well equipped railway workshop.

I am a majority owner in what was a rather run down Austerity 0-6-0st; I should think we will have spent over £200,000 by the time it steams, but it will have been thoroughly remanufactured. There are about 50 to 60 of this type preserved, so they do come on the market occasionally. I have heard of one selling for over £120,000 with a current boiler certificate (which can hide a multitude of sins until the next inspection).

The problem is this: if you do sell, what guarantee are you prepared to give that your locomotive is in "good" condition, what cost will you bear if the new owner then has to rip it to bits due to an unexpected defect in the 70 year old fabric of a locomotive built to last for 40 years, and pay engineers to sort it out?

If you won't give a guarantee, why should the purchaser pay the full price you are asking? I know of one locomotive, sold for a very good price indeed, on the basis that it should save on hire charges - then it was found to need a new cylinder.

Well it took me a little under 5 years to take the J&L 58 from a hulk of rusty steel to operating condition. I did just about all the work on the locomotive with the exception of the boiler and any machine work. However at the time I was not working full time so I could devote several days a week to the project and I have a facility replete with tools and supplies. Is 58 worth a quarter million? Nope. It is still a way too heavy machine for most two foot gauge railroads. But it is perfect here.

And yes, there are people out there who are tackling restoration projects on either an individual or small group level because they got disenchanted with larger groups and their internal politics. Including myself I personally know of four projects that this would apply to. That is a good thing!

> If you won't give a guarantee, why should the purchaser pay the full price you are asking?

Its really no different than buying a boat where you can have it surveyed prior to purchase, find that its in great shape, and then blow an engine on your first run out of the marina. Generally speaking, there are no guarantees with a boat sale. Anyone buying a restored steam locomotive will want a proper inspection, but then may below a cylinder head on its first run. I would never expect a guarantee with a locomotive.

As to price, that is determined by what the market will bear. You can ask all day long some high number, but it really comes down to what someone will pay for it, preferably what a couple of people will pay for it.

I would tend to disagree with Rick as to what the #58 may be worth. If sold as a package, with the required heavy rail, I would think it could bring a decent amount of money. Most private owners don’t take their locomotives to other RR's, preferring to keep things private. The 58 is a nice tight package, takes up a small amount of space, has the big engine feel and bark.

J.R. May

And that's one of the big differences between the US and the UK. There, it's not uncommon (compared to here) for a standard gauge locomotive to migrate from one preserved railway on occasion.

I'm a-jes' gonna leave this here..............

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-wiltshire-54735107

"Steam engine bought for £50 sells for more than £900k"

Mind you, it's a "road locomotive" or what we call a "steam tractor," but.........

Comparing traction engines to locomotives is like apples to oranges. Although born of the same technology, traction equipment is generally smaller and easier to transport, doesn't need infrastructure to operate like railroad equipment, requires "less" maintenance (State boiler Regs vs. FRA pt. 230), and are much, much more readily available on the market.

These are just a few reasons you see traction/thresher shows comprised mostly of equipment from individuals and private collections. This is hardly seen with steam locomotives, where individual ownership is the exception, not the rule. For a person who's not specifically wanting a locomotive, and is out for a steam powered 'something', it's a no-brainer decision.

As has been said so many times before, anything is only "worth" what someone will pay, essentially coming down to a highest offer. And with steam locomotives, there's hardly ever more than one or two individuals who are crazy enough to submit an offer, on the rare occasion one does come up on the market. Locomotives often also need to be the 'right' type have the 'right' heritage, which again comes down to the taste of the buyer.

The only other reasonable alternative to an individual buying a locomotive is a museum, and most museums dont have the excess cash to make what the seller would consider a reasonable offer. ("We'll be a good home for it" isn't an offer)

Locomotive sales are uncommon enough, the circumstances different enough, and the types vary enough, it's impossible to generate a rough value based on previous sales.

Note that of the two locomotives brought up at the beginning of this thread causing concern about price inflation, neither buyer or seller of either have come out to confirm or deny the sale price, and so the numbers and true condition of each are speculative at best.

-Sam

For anyone interested in an example of what is the "going rate" for an unrestored industrial tank engine in the UK, I noticed this pair are currently advertised for sale....

The Sentinel is a vertical boilered chain-drive type of locomotive for anyone unfamiliar with the name.
£15,000 for the unrestored Andrew Barclay is around US$20,000.

I've recently been helping to acquire this fully restored one for a Museum I'm involved with...

Though with an overhaul in the past few months and a 10 year boiler ticket, it was a bit more than £15,000 to purchase!