There is more than one kind if preservation.

A large, modern steam locomotive in action is preserving the sight, sounds and smells of operating steam.

To 99% of the population it matters not a whit what kind of brake valve is used or what kind of fuel is being burned or how (or even if) the axles are lubed. It is the ONLY opportunity for most people to experience a tiny slice of what steam railroading was like. They can feel the heat coming off of it; see and smell and even touch the grease and oil. They can hear it hiss and gurgle and the bell and the whistle and even the safety valves. They can hear the injectors and air pumps working. They can learn what it was like to work on one of these things in 100-degree heat and humidity. They can see how much work it takes and why.

No static, dead, cold, display is going to give them 5% of that, no matter how well it's presented, no matter how accurate the docents, nor how accurate the article is.


Take the case of warbirds or historic ships. Which makes the point better: A stuffed, mounted-on-a-pylon, faded and covered with bird droppings B-17 or a B-17 flying over at low level? Yes, the first may be accurate down to the last rivet. The other may have modern radios and navigation systems on board. Both serve a real purpose. But which one will people remember?

Of the two preserved Liberty ships, both of which operate, are they most representative sitting at their respective piers as cold iron, or actually under way?

Dear Josh

When I look at EP&SW #1, I now understand that such items as air brakes and knuckle couplers are add ons. Remember they spotted the locomotives at Promontory were stopped by the hand brake not by air brakes. While the changes to the locomotive allowed it continue operating the result of these changes caused a change in way it and the railroad were operated. When I look at the promontory locomotives I see machines created to tell a story. A story whose details were still trying to uncover. I believe the locomotives are reaching 40 years old as they were built after I was born. But in the end have done anything significant? Food for thought, I understand that today in California just because your automobile is of age does not mean that you can get historic or classic plates based upon the vehicle age. You have to explain why it is historic. .

When I started on 3420 in 1985 I knew little about steam. I only had my model railroad based ignorance. Overtime, discussions with people willing to give there time and learning. I have watched steam era retired railroaders show up to a locomotive and had memories come back. They remember many things and what they share is often things that left a mark on them. Yet most people working for the railroad did not work on trains. They were mot the typical positions that so many think of on a railroad. I encourage everyone to try to expand their understanding of railroading and what they think they know. I have heard this from several railroaders every day try to learn something new about railroading. When you quit learning you become a liability to you and to others.

Robby Peartree

In short, all of the above.

I started out in this avocation with an interest in running the cars. With time, I learned about the impact of electric street railways on the development of the city. And then I learned about the impact of the development of the city on the demise of streetcars.

Likewise, the collection of cars and operation on the demonstration railway for our patrons provide a tangible and an an admittedly entertaining link to multiple aspects of the past.

Wesley

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Very well said sir.

I will tell you who WON"T complain about 4501 getting a stoker. Every fireman who has to hand bomb that thing! It is too big an engine to be hand-fired. End of discussion.

As for air brakes, 8ET is better than 6ET. 26L is more familiar to today's engineers and therefore a good choice for steam mainline running with diesel men.

Dear Mr. Kennedy

Then how did it work all those years on the Southern? Magic? Are we stronger then then now in that tallent field? Firebox size and what one person can do has always been an issue but I have a hard time with just ending the discussion there. This type of comment is similar to the statement you can only run the Grand Canyon branch with the 26. Really? The Santa Fe ran trains on the branch for years without the 26 air. We are seeing more changes like this. Locomotives at the NN were converted from oil to grease lubrication because grease was a better lubricant. But after two years of being on grease someone found and removed the horse hair from the former oil points.

So the question still is Just what are we preserving and why? Yes preservation is a open term but it is in the tittle of this very board. Defining the goals and aspirations of any endeavor is important.

Robby Peartree

The 4501 stoker was covered pretty well in a thread about 2 years ago. The explanations were pretty fair and understandable.

Reason 1) The engine does a lot more long distance, high speed running today than it ever did in service.

Reason 2) Reducing the number of crew in the cab (hand firing requires two firemen and a coal trimmer) is safer and allows more guest riders.

Reason 3) Many of the same class were equipped.

Basically, the same reason that coal is no longer mined by an army of men with picks, shovels, mules, and dump carts. Nobody in their right mind is trying to replicate that anywhere, either.

For the same reason we don't ride horses or oxcarts everyday.

Coal was seldom dumped into tenders with a backhoe or front end loader. Water was seldom taken from fire hydrants or fire trucks, either.

All nuts, bolts, washers, etc. were made by each railroad in it's own blacksmith shop.

In the south especially, locomotive servicing was done almost exclusively by blacks; in the southwest it was mostly native Americans. But only whites got the skilled jobs and the supervisory positions. Should we bring that back, too? It IS part of railroading history, as were segregated craft unions.

Pilots didn't have parachutes.

Preserved "old west" forts and towns don't go so far as to have piles of horse manure all over their streets, along with the stench, the flies, etc. Some things are better left unrecreated.

A lot of substances and procedures that were in everyday use "back then" are banned today, and usually for good reason. Anybody use or even try to find white lead or red lead or lead-based paint lately? Why don't we use R12 in our passenger car air conditioners any more?

Everything evolves, including many of the pieces we operate today. Most of the Southern 2-8-2's eventually got stokers, and for good reason. Can anyoe say with authority that 4501 would never have gotten a stoker had it stayed on SR for a few more years.

There are radical fundamentalists in any endeavor. Fortunately, they are usually outnumbered by others who are more pragmatic, have more common sense, and realize that some things are too esoteric or too trivial or too dangerous to be continued, recreated or even worried about.

Yes, as Frisco said, we are divided. Those who do it and get it done, and those who talk and criticize those who get it done.

There are those on this board who have accomplished great things. There those who have tried hard but failed. There are those who become totally bound up in originality to the point they don't accomplish much of anything. There are those so set in their ways that they end up getting fired because they will not bend. There are those who think they are the first to think of something and insist on reinventing the wheel. And there are a few who cannot see two or more sides to a discussion. Some things are unrealistic or so trivial that to try to argue them is in itself silly.

For me, a locomotive making the ground shake as it thunders by at speed does more than any bejeweled museum piece in a building to show "how it was", no matter what is in the journal boxes. That cannot be simulated, until museums have Holodecks.

Maybe a more relevant question might be WHO are we preserving it for?

Are we preserving something exactly as it was so a knowledgeable group of rail enthusiasts will marvel at it?

Or

Are we preserving something as a whole (as opposed to cutting it up) so that the common man will marvel at it?


to the average person steam locomotives, diesels, boxcars, tank cars, Pullmans, and motorcars, etc. are all just "trains."

Dear Hotbox

You raise a great question. If you were to take different disciplines from college I think each one would describe a railroads impact on society differently.


I like to bring up something that truck me as something some RR museums that have historic buildings could do is a heritage street much like the Clark County museum in Henderson, NV.

There web site is here

http://www.clarkcountynv.gov/parks/Page ... useum.aspx

Robby Peartree

direct reply to the question...

The railroad is a proven technology that came about before before we had cars.
For the steam engine for today if something happens to the oil we have people knowlegable of steam technology who can make it work. It keeps a technology alive.

I wasn't going to respond, but I guess I feel the need, with regard to the original question. As a former long time volunteer, then trustee, and ultimately chairman of the board, based on my own personal hard lesson learned, I suspect you are all missing the point. An organization has a built in conflict. Its the good intentions of the mission statement/constitution/by-laws versus the need to attract volunteers. The mission statement may be about preservation and history, but the workers are there to enjoy themselves and work on the items of most interest to them. This was a hard lesson I learned. That is reality.

Ask the guy restoring the '72 Malibu in his garage. Is he doing for sake of history or for some personal reason?

An organization can have all kinds of good preservation intentions within in its mission statement and such, but its the working volunteers behind the organization that ultimately decides (whether the board agrees or not) what is saved, what is important, what is really worked on, how the group is run.

Sorry, that is the reality. This is why one item is restored and another perhaps more important item of historical importance is left to rot.
JR

I think that's a somewhat accurate reflection of where a lot of organizations are today JR, but that probably reflects the inherited makeup of them rather than the only possible way to structure them. Why not only work for volunteers who do buy into the mission rather than want to change it? Many people don't want to get their hands dirty but love history. If we're about history but not technology, we can skew our staff that way......

And, staffs aren't necessarily limited to uncompensated hands-on people - unless you structure your organization with that perspective in mind. I think we need to keep in mind that we have a heritage of incestuous condensing of predominantly like minded individuals gathering into social collectives that didn't seek out a broader base hanging over us and limiting out potential today.

The scenario of the working volunteers making decisions about collections management (whether the board agrees or not) is not a generally accepted practice for a non-profit museum. A reality in many cases, yes, but probably not good business practice for the long-term health of the organization. (See: streetcar and locomotive restorations started and then left in pieces when volunteer interest wanes as teh next "project du jour" is acquired.) Our organization woke up to this fact in the late 1970s and early 1980s and began a slow transition to strong board oversight of the museum. Our current pool of shop volunteers enjoy what they are doing, no matter what the project at the moment. And the project planning is based on a general strategic plan approved by the board.

I should add that in the 1990s we also changed from a membership-elected board to a more traditional board of trustees that is self-perpetuating. We have at least 1/3 of the board made up of community members with no direct volunteer association in the museum. So far this has worked well to provide a broader-based community interest in the continued success of the museum.

Wesley