I haven't seen any proof to that effect. I believe (based on currently available information) that the locomotives are on permanent loan to their respective custodians-not owned by them.

I saw the General last Fall for the first time since I was a kid. The museum they have the locomotive in is very small but very good as well.
The one thing that drives me nuts is the L&N style number on her headlight lens...

The General is owned by the State of Georgia. There's a long history of lawsuits over ownership that was eventually settled by the US Supreme Court.

Coincidentally, the Southern Museum, which houses the General in Kennesaw, GA, is allowing access to the cab of the General this Saturday. See info below.

http://www.southernmuseum.org/2014/06/southern-museum-to-host-second-annual-railroad-rendezvous/

That's what I remembered. I did not recall any documentation of either locomotive being disposed of. Only the Western and Atlantic Railroad of the State of Georgia can dispose of the locomotives and seeing as it is state owned, that won't happen.

As to Title. The General has the intriguing story. It’s title was settled by the US Supreme Court. The L&N won a battle for it with the City of Chattanooga, and then turned it over to the State of GA. Both these locos began as State of GA property being ordered and purchased originally by the State’s Western & Atlantic RR. Their ownership goes like this W&A (State owned), W&A (private), NC&StL/L&N*, State of GA (General), City of Atlanta (Texas).

As to the “3” on the General’s headlight - well the L&N is responsible for that. Of the two, the Texas is far closer to original both in terms of parts and appearance. Here's the Texas not long after retiring from the NC&StL

http://georgiainfo.galileo.usg.edu/gast ... Walker.jpg

*L&N held majority stake in the NC&StL

When I saw the Texas a few years ago it looked like there were a few things missing. I don't remember everything, but one of the rods was missing from the engineer's side.

What would it take to replace the missing pieces with at least cosmetic wooden stand-ins?

I'd volunteer to help, but I'm in South Jersey.

-Mark

Is there any record of a deed or bill of sale transferring the Texas from the State of Georgia to the City of Atlanta? As for ownership in general, the NC&St.L and the Western and Atlantic Railroad never "owned" the Western and Atlantic Railroad of the State of Georgia in the legal sense as they leased the road for a fixed period of time. I forget when the current lease expires, but it's only a 20-25 year lease.

Correct re WARR. Post Civil War 1870, the State quit or had to guit the operation side (not sure of the role of reconstruction on the state getting out of operations) choosing to lease the R.O.W. to operators the first of which was the second coming of the WARR - WARR Co. The NC&STL got it in 1890. The 1986 lease end date was the leverage that the Ga Building Authority used to operate the New GA on CSX trackage around Atlanta. 2019 is the current lease end date.

As to clear title on the Texas, unless CSX wants to make a fuss (extremely unlikely), it's pretty much the City's property. Not being a lawyer, not sure how easy it would be to claim property after it's been possessed by an institution for 103 years (1911 to present).

Then the Texas is still the property of the State of Georgia. The railroad as the holder of the lease does not own the property and therefore, lacks legal authority to dispose of the property under the terms of the lease (which I have a copy of at home). The lease requires that the leasee return the number of locomotives and rolling stock that were turned over to the leasee at the commencement of the lease and that any improvements to the railroad become the property of the state.

As to the General, the argument was made (though no satisfactory proof was ever presented) that the NC&St. L had made some agreement or promise to the City of Chattanooga that the locomotive would remain there for display. The case never made it to the Supreme Court of the United States as they refused to take the case, leaving the lower court's ruling in place. The lower court ruled that the State of Georgia was the rightful owner of the locomotive and could do as it wished with the locomotive.

I suspect that the ending of the state operation of the road was due to political chicanery on the part of Governor Joseph Brown. He arranged the 1870 lease to the Western and Atlantic Railroad Company, of which he and a few associates were the officers. The 1870 lease notably left out any provision for the state to take possession of improvements to the road (including locomotives and rolling stock). Thus, Brown and company bought new locomotives and equipment for their railroad and when the lease expired, sold them all! The equipment that was turned back in was literally the same equipment that the state had turned over to the road in 1870! The valuation of the locomotives and cars was a source of contention between the State and the NC for more than 20 years-specifically the freight cars as all of them were scrapped, being totally unfit for service.

Back in 1970-72 The L&N may have been doing some of the GA's bidding re the General. GA has a way of getting the lease holder to say how high when the state says jump. New GA is the best example of that.

Mute anyway but I'm not thinking the State of GA has much interest in the Texas or any contest over its title in an election year.

While this is probably true, never underestimate the State of Georgia's favorite hobby: screwing over the City of Atlanta. Some backwoods politician might smell blood and make a point of ownership to win votes with their anti-Atlanta constituents. Stuff like this happens every legislative session and every election.

I think the move will be good. The Atlanta History Center is a much better facility than the Cyclorama, and in a new building, the Texas will probably be more visible. I live about six blocks from the Cyclorama and I haven't been in at least 20 years. The place is never open at a convenient time.

Unclear to me is if both the Texas and General had been "confiscated" by the U.S. Military Railroad as the war ended. If so what if any effect would that have had on the loco's title.

The painting's move along with the Texas is a good thing. I'd hate to think both could get in as bad shape as they were in 1979 when the Cyclorama was renovated.

Slightly O/T.

The new installation of the Gettysburg cyclorama has greatly improved the impact of the painting. Hopefully the folks in Atlanta will take note.

Wesley

None. The United States Military Railroad returned all locomotives and equipment to their original owners. It was mainly an organization that was empowered to take control of rail lines and operate them for the benefit of the United States Army. It used USMRR equipment where necessary to provide the levels of service needed to support the Army, but mostly operated the equipment owned by the railroads that were temporarily under control. It should also be noted that the train and locomotive crews of the USMRR were civilian, as were the construction crews.



Atlanta isn't the only city that the State of Georgia has had a long running dispute with. Chattanooga, Tennessee has been at odds with the State of Georgia since at least the 1920s. They don't forget perceived wrongs and the access to the Tennessee River issue goes back to the railroad's original completion in 1849. I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to use the original right of way agreement to get access.

Hi,

I doubt there is any original material left in the Texas or General. "It's my Grandpa's axe - the handle has been re-placed three times and the head twice but it's my Grandpa's axe"

As Zoo Atlanta ousted the Atlanta Zoo Train Inc (G16 Miniature Trains product from the early 1950's) in the middle 1990's, it is now ousting the Texas.

Personally, I think both the Texas and General should be displayed together. I know that's not possible but it is my opinion. Both locos are very good representations of the 1800's 4-4-0 type. I was able to ride behind the Eureka (36" gauge 4-4-0) back int he 1990's on both the C&TS and the D&SNG. Wonderful experience.

As a side note, Mom and Dad had me in Kennesaw in about 1962 for the 100th reenactment of the Great Locomotive Chase on the W&A (leased to the L&N). I still remember seeing the General under steam. I think it was one of her last outings.

Doug vV