Well, we can't believe that someone would maliciously (not cluelessly, but intentionally) walk into a photo, then continue to deliberately stand there even after it should be plainly obvious to him/her that he's interfering with the photographic desires of ten, fifteen, or even a hundred photographers. But I've seen it, repeatedly, at both rail and non-rail occasions, and so have many others here, no doubt. At times, it's seemingly driven by the same "look at me" egotism that drives graffiti taggers to scribble their "tag" on any blank space.

In my city, it has become routine for pedestrians in certain areas to intentionally delay crossing at an intersection until they are stepping in front of the line of cars JUST as the light turns green for the cars, then take their merry little ol' time crossing (in direct violation of the "Walk/Don't Walk" signals there, mind you). I understand that this is common in many other cities as well. Put up with this as many times as I do in a week (and I don't drive that much), and it's enough to turn you into a permanent misanthrope. Heck with rocks; we want flamethrowers. >:-]



Sometimes we can. I've seen one particularly diplomatic car host (and photo charter operator) walk up to such a person with all the charisma of a Presidential candidate seeking a vote, and politely review the fact that there are fifty or more photographers behind them at a much better photo angle, and could he kindly come back and join them or at least duck behind the tree/bush? The response is typically 1/4 "oh, OK," 1/4 "OK, I'll duck behind the bush" and 1/2 "screw you." The latter are particularly poisonous, and I've seen the RR officially threaten to cancel the runby until the guy joins the main photo line.

Now, consider the odds of the response when it's only one or three of you.

I understand that, in one or two admittedly extreme cases in NS steam days, knowing one particularly poisonous character was likely to be obnoxiously present in advance at the established photo runby locations that weekend, the NS Police were on hand, and ejected him completely from the property with orders not to even chase the rest of the day or end up in jail.

On certain late 1980s/early 1990s NS runs out of Alexandria, the D.C. Joint Trip Committee went as far as to string "police line" tape at the runby locations, mandating that everybody line up behind the tape or else. Admittedly extreme, but effective. Furthermore, a crew would go out in advance of the train to erect the tape and do "landscaping" as needed--in one case, felling several dozen small trees at Tye River, Va. to open up a vista from the old Virginia Blue Ridge right-of-way, then herding anyone that stepped off the train down the right-of-way (a real hike) to the location. It was worth it, trust me.

I do not shoot like I used to, but when I do I certainly prefer photos free of "interruptions". Generally we as fans are looking to create a higher caliber of photo than the regular citizen who does not have the level of interest or dedication to the subject, and often they do not comprehend that.

In my experience it is not so much that people are being intentionally malicious, it is that they are being purposefully ignorant. At simple glance they could often see that there are people standing there with cameras or camcorders and take the simple courtesy to stay out of they way and/or keep quiet, but they do not. They are oblivious and often are so for long periods.

One example I recall clearly is when a guy (with no camera) showed up at a photo line after everyone was set up (tripods and all) and proceeded to allow his daughter to start playing in the field in front of the line. After some time I asked if hs daughter could play outside our photo and he very indignantly complied. It was clear that our efforts were of absolutely no concern to him. In another instance at least a half dozen photographers were "working" an idling steam locomotive when a fellow walks up to it and starts examining it up close with the photographers readily apparent. After some time a photographer asked him to move and it was clear he had no idea that he was impeding others, but could have easily known if he had been aware of his surroundings.

This is not at all limited to steam locomotives or even transportation. It is a phenomenon I see extensively in the national parks. It is nearly impossible to get a clear photo of a waterfall or natural arch that is within an easy hike of a parking lot. In Arches National Park they had to erect fences and signs to keep out visitors who were trodding around the arches so heavily they were in danger of collapse due to erosion. In Yosemite there is never a moment when there are not fifty or more whooping bathers splashing about in the pools beneath the falls.

A lot of people simply have no respect or care for how others wish to appreciate a site in its natural environment. They are far more interested in themselves and their own pursuits. At the same time I often note individuals or groups who ARE purposefully respectful and courteous to photographers. Parents have kept their kids our of the photo line until the pictures are done, and/or apologized for stepping into a shot. To such folks I ALWAYS say "thank you" for their efforts. I think there are more courteous people than their appear to be, but you don't notice them because they are ... COURTEOUS.

On the flip site there are courteous and rude people by about the same proportion in the photographers.

In all cases the further off the beaten path you get, the higher percentage of people you will encounter who understand the importance of what you are doing because they have gone to the extra effort themselves.

At a NS trip long ago, there was a photo line with a small section of someone's land between the photo line and the tracks. This wasn't a runby, just some guy self-policing themselves for the one pass. A farmer soon came up on a tractor passing in front of the line. You could hear the train off in the distance and many train buffs went nuts. The self-imposed "commanding general of the photo line" (you see his type every time this happens) starts yelling at him to move. That farmers asks why, the line quickly responds the reason. The farmer kicked back and turned off the tractor and said, "Really? I've never sene one come through here before!" and just sits there. People started going ballistic. He turned back and yelled, "Hey, this is my own land, I can do whatever I want here. If ya'll had just asked me to move, I would have. So this is what happens to rude people, just be sure to get my good side!" and then turned back to watch 611 go past. I actually got a good shot with him there, laughing every second. I thought, "Good for you," as I snapped away. The line got exactly what they deserved.In the case of the video I mentioned, 4449 was passing through the area and anothe rlocomotive was running on a parallel track, both moving slowly but wouldn't be backing up and doing it again. And this guy walks right out the very moment you'd start snapping, stands facing the photo line and pointing toward said locomotives and stays there until the shot is gone. No, I'm sorry, the rock was well deserved even though (like most train buffs), the photog had no arm and the rock landed way short of the target. I don't condone it at all but I can understand it. God knows how long those people had waited to get a shot they'd probably never be able to get again.
I've always wondered why someone would do that intentionally like that and what happened to him after he walked out of the video shot. I imagine he had at least one ticked off train fan in his face over that.

If everybody would just wear appropriate period clothing around steam locomotives, we wouldn't have this problem!

As a lifelong historical re-enactor, I'd be fine with that, but many trains photogs don't want anyone in the shot.
Heck, at the NRHS convention in 2011, people were griping that "that guy" never moved from the side of # 15 at the Chehalis operation. I finally said, "Uh, guys, that's not only the engineer, he ran that locomotive in active service in the day and he's oiling her up right now..."
Not one person recognized how cool that was. How often do you get the chance to get the engineer who ran the engine originally, in the same shot before he takes it out for a run? In my opinion, I'd be yelling at him to get into the shot, not out of it!

At the '98 Ohio Railroad History conference in New Philadelphia/Dennison, the last event of the weekend was a trip to Gould Tunnel with OC 1293. The engine and train arrived at the station about 45 minutes before departure and a bunch of us were getting our 3/4 wedgies of it in front of the depot. So, this guy walks up to the engine holding his small son in his arms and starts showing him the various parts of the running gear.

Several photographers were about to "let him have it" verbally when I decided it was time to give them a clue. "I wouldn't do that if I were you, that's Jerry Jacobson, the owner...." They then decided that THAT was the shot to get. I sent Jerry a copy of mine.

Lee, you're right, we've all seen the "I don't want people in my shot!" photogs.

However, I think they're a minority, and they're typically not the serious photographers. Just about every photo charter I've worked or been on has had some photo stops where they use the crew (who has been told ahead of time to wear period clothing) to set up a vignette. Typically they'll do a roll by, the crew oiling around, and at least one "Kinsey Photo" of the entire crew posing on the engines.

I have never heard any of the photographers complain about those setups and most seem to really enjoy them. The key is that the crew is in period dress, and they're posed in a way that is appropriate.

I've experienced frustrations similar to some described above. I think we could all learn to be a little more generous to our brothers and sisters. Over 50 years since most railroads stopped running steam, we should be happy that the general public is still interested in seeing these things. To me, it is further proof that we could be the recipients of a great deal of good will from the general public if only we knew how to effectively cultivate that good will into financial and volunteer support.

The desire to take uncluttered photos is not unique to our fellow enthusiasts, but it does suggest there is a tendency amongst us to fetishize the subject (machines in this case) above all else. While the machines are certainly cool, most people ultimately seem to be interested in other people. Okay, I am wandering from the topic here a bit, but I go to see Art shows all the time, and there is a lot of curatorial technique used to contextualize the art and get museum visitors excited about it. The trend for a long time now has been to focus on the personal lives of the artists and how the work was affected by human relationships between artists, spouses, models, collectors, and dealers. This generally makes the art accessible to the public and results in successful shows.

An alternate approach focused on theory, technique, and the place of the work in the broader scope of art history might be more meaningful to serious devotees of fine art, but it does not sell tickets. Of course, the curators still manage to include some key lessons from the above subjects, but they are not the focus.

I hope what I am trying to say here is clear. I hear a lot of expressions of frustration in this thread (and many others on this board) with members of the general public, but I don't get the sense that we, as a group, do a great job of drawing them in. I think a lot of people are inclined to like trains and could be our supporters, but we need to be much more accommodating.

Thanks

Randy

Back at the first Steamfest in 1997, we got off the train in...I think it was Frazeysburg. We had run late because of eight million runbys, so the town festival had pretty much wrapped up, but a few people who hadn't heard about the excursion wandered up to see 1551. I waited until the crew had her secured and went down to get a mostly head-on shot of her from a slight curve.
Along came a red-haired boy on a bicycle. I thought he was going to run into something as he went up in front of me. He stopped and sat there a good five minutes, staring up at her with his mouth hanging open.
Yeah, he was in the way, but...he WAS the picture. He was the future and he was amazed and that's good. I have a lot of face-on shots of 1551. I only have one picture of what she meant to a maybe ten-year-old redhead in 1997.

hehe

I was shooting 765 when being pulled out from Lawton park....

some kid was riding a bicycle and just meandered in front of the camera, like whats this..

I'll just take advantage of the moment and make a comical reference in the film.

life is life.

You think some rail fans here are bad wait until you see what happens in Japan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SMIgGAHAoU
God forbid you are a railroad employee standing in the wrong place.
http://youtu.be/k9OJL0c-CBg
AHHH BAKA TRUCK
https://www.youtube.com/v/k9OJL0c-CBg&hl=en_US&fs=1&
What would you do if this happened at your museumes loading platform?
That is what a K5LA mounted on your car is for.

But propane, CNG, butane, etc. REALLY muck up the sound of a K5LA.

what causes the problem? The igniter sticking into the horn, or the flame front?