Has anyone heard any groups (or UP for that matter) talking about PTC and how to adapt it for steamers?

You might consider contacting Wabtec Railway Electronics (Germantown, MD), PHW Inc. (E. Pittsburgh, PA) and Quantum Engineering (Orange Park, FL), the three most frequently mentioned US suppliers of PTC technology, to inquire about steam installations. It was discussed extensively on RYPN some time ago and the general consensus was that the technology for applications is not a problem. However given the small potential market and the tremendous liability, it seems likely that steam locomotive PTC installations will be individually customized rather than offered as standardized equipment kits.

PC

I believe the jury is still out on PTC and mainline steam. The FRA representative, a week or so ago, at the APTA convention in Chicago mentioned it in passing, and I believe said that the decision hasn't been made or at least finalized. Besides steam, I suspect it is the same for "historic" diesel equipment running on Class 1 carriers, as well. There are other issues with PTC to be worked out. Do shortline engines, interchanging with Class 1 carriers have to be equipped because they run short distances on the Class 1 carriers? I am not sure that the RSAC working group responsiblefor the task has filed their recommendations for the full Rail Safety Advisory Committee consideration, just yet. It is on a fast track, I am sure of that.

The best I can advise is to stay tuned. If I had a mainline steam engine, I'd start saving my pennies, if I intended to continue operations on Class 1 lines required to have PTC. PTC on the locomotive probably will cost at least as much as it does to equip a locomotive with the latest Northeast Corridor ATC/ATS equipment. Of course the alternate is to rent a PTC locomotive from the Class I carrier, and put it in front.

For that matter, there is a now a door safety working group at RSAC working on some new recommendations, and with museums starting to acquire former commuter cars with trainlined automatic (electric or electro-pneumatic) side doors, I wonder will those new recommendations flow down as far as excursion, historic or museum operations? I don't know, again, stay tuned.

I will add a number to what George has posted, the current installed cost of combined ATC and ACSES (single cabinet system) is well in excess of $100K. In a retrofit situation the cost is even higher due to the custom installation.

PC

So placing computer screens in the cab wouldn't be an issue?

IF the equipment were to eventually be required on steam locomotives, it would likely include a cab mounted display unit with a touch screen interface, an electronics module or equipment rack, a GPS antenna, and a separate power supply, all connected by shielded cables that would probably have to be installed in individual conduits. It would also involve the installation of magnet valves to control brake application, some type of servo unit to assume control of the throttle, and sensors to tell the unit how the engineer is operating the locomotive controls.

PC

Do steam locomotives already equipped for automatic train stop by their original owners already have some of this installed?

Keeping in mind that this is still an entirely theoretical discussion, there is no PTC requirement in place at this time, it seems likely that the only hardware parallels might be in magnet valves in the brake system. It is unlikely that any future regulations would allow two safety related systems to share the same actuation device, since one defective magnet valve could disable two critical systems at once. It is much more likely the two systems actuation devices would need to be completely independent.

Regarding the earlier question whether shortline engines that run on Class 1 rails will have to be equipped, I can confirm that local shortline/regional roads engines that run on the NEC are required to have the current ACSES and ATC to meet Amtrak requirements.

PC

Since this is still being formulated/discussed, any chance of getting a historic equipment exemption for steam locomotives and excursion rolling stock put in the regulations? It's not like the few excursions operating over mainlines aren't already under extraordinary scrutiny already.

I would think the question of a historic equipment exemption would be something that Tourist Railway Association's paid lobbyist should be addressing. Frankly, I have not seen anything concrete from TRAIn regarding recent (last 5-8 years) federal rules/mandates and any requests for exemptions for historic and/or tourist railroads. Just a report from the lobbyist about more new rules.

PWW is quite correct-- any steam locomotive operating on a mainline is under such intense scrutiny that PTC is virtually redundant.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Howard P.
Rule 99, CT

Redundant, maybe--but view it as one more thing that Great Big RR can demand in order to keep you off their railroad, so they don't have to bother with the likes of you.

If this eventually is required for steam locomotives (and again, there is no present requirement) locating suitable space for the equipment box and batteries may be challenging. These systems are very expensive, and have used modules in equipment boxes so that repair work could be confined to smaller components rather than having to swap out all of a $100K system at once. As a result the equipment boxes are still rather large. A separate ATC and ACSES takes up most of the space on either side of the nose of an F40PH. I have five locomotives with the new combined system, it takes up only one side of the nose and now there is enough room to set up a folding seat down there for working on the electronics. Hopefully the packaging of PTC will be more compact.

PC

What voltage powers this equipment and how would this voltage be generated on a steam locomotive ?

DPK

In 1998 NJT installed a complete ATC system in the 614. It required completely renewing all the wiring on the loco., installing a set of diesel batteries (to supply the new microprocessor "brain" of the system with non fluctuating current) an additional turbogenerator (steam) to keep the batteries charged, a microprocessor to govern the system, hardware to display the signal aspects in the cab, and a "new" 26L brake system. The system they installed was built by the Union Switch&Signal Co.

One of the adaptations we needed to make was the installation of a talgo switch on the throttle quadrant at about the 1/3 on point that would "fib" to the microprocessor that the throttle was completely closed if the system made a full service penalty brake application and wanted all power shut off. As most of you know the steam engine depends on steam to deliver lubrication to the valves and main pistons and the last thing you'd want to happen would be to lose that lubrication at speed.

Also installed and integral to the system is satellite tracking and an event recorder.

I'm told that the system on 614 will need some relatively minor upgrades to be fully functional with the upcoming national PTC system once it's finally agreed upon.

Ross Rowland

Do any pictures exist of this equipment as installed on 614?