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 Post subject: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:22 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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Thread on the Ahead of the Torch (AOTT) website showing their heavyweight open window coach # 1133 (ex-CNJ) with compartments ala British Railways. Access through center aisle. Each compartment seating up to 4 folks. Wonderful craftsmanship, and a way to deal with "social distancing." Wonder if in the future, this might be the way to go? Certainly a way to deal with the "problem" right now!

Les


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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
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Location: Leicester, MA.
Les Beckman wrote:
Thread on the Ahead of the Torch (AOTT) website showing their heavyweight open window coach # 1133 (ex-CNJ) with compartments ala British Railways. Access through center aisle. Each compartment seating up to 4 folks. Wonderful craftsmanship, and a way to deal with "social distancing." Wonder if in the future, this might be the way to go? Certainly a way to deal with the "problem" right now!

Les

Well couldn't a sleeping car also serve a similar purpose? I would imagine a car of primarily compartments or something similar could work just as well.

However, at work we've retrofitted a few buildings with UV air purifiers and it might be something to look at for tourist railroads. We get the ones that can get cut right into ductwork, and in theory those bulbs last for a year or two. Ideally you put it on the supply side after any sort of air filter so you're purifying already filtered air (at least that's what we've done). Now, I have no clue what sort of CFM or tonnage goes through the ductwork of an average tourist railroad passenger car. I've seen ratings on tonnage primarily, but the occasional reference to CFM... It's frankly enough that with my limited knowledge I'm not entirely positive what's the correct measuring standard. I do know that one building we did required something like twenty of these UV purifiers to go in the ductwork, but that was a rather larger commercial building that was at one point owned by UMASS. Anyway, it might be something to think about. Although if states start requiring their existence in a system to allow a building to be reopened to the public (I believe NY is saying malls can't reopen unless their HVAC systems can filter out COVID), these may become hard to get. So, you know, maybe start looking into it now and possibly getting your hands on a few units before there's a run on these things?

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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:57 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5843
daylight4449 wrote:
Les Beckman wrote:
Thread on the Ahead of the Torch (AOTT) website showing their heavyweight open window coach # 1133 (ex-CNJ) with compartments ala British Railways. Access through center aisle. Each compartment seating up to 4 folks. Wonderful craftsmanship, and a way to deal with "social distancing." Wonder if in the future, this might be the way to go? Certainly a way to deal with the "problem" right now!

Les

Well couldn't a sleeping car also serve a similar purpose? I would imagine a car of primarily compartments or something similar could work just as well.



Dylan - Good point! Those cars are usually not used on tourist trains, but here might be a logical opportunity to use them! Not sure how many heavyweight sleepers are around that might have rooms and also open windows. Perhaps Conway Scenic didn't have such a car, so modifying ex-CNJ 1133 made sense. I failed to mention in my original posting that fans were installed in each of the compartments in the 1133.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:23 am 

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Location: Ipswich, UK
That is a very impressive conversion job, and may actually prove to be a popular layout for customers with or without the Covid threat.
Unfortunately, I don't think that would be an option here in the UK due to the reduced loading gauge (mainly car width). All the compartment stock on corridor trains here had the gangway on one side of the vehicle with 6 seater compartments. The enclosing of "Open" stock with the bays of four each side of the central gangway would make the walkway too narrow for use (and most likely cause problems with modern accessibility regulations as well).

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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:54 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:21 pm
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We recently acquired a sleeping car, and I brought up the idea of using the 8 separate bedrooms as 'social distancing compartments'. But I was told that guests would probably not like it because the windows are small, you can only see out one side of the train, and it would interfere with the onboard entertainment.

We've also been looking into UVC filtration for our duct work. I'd be interesting to see if anyone has done actual calculations to see what size of system would be required for a passenger car.

Eric


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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:15 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
Posts: 1087
Location: Leicester, MA.
hadder wrote:
We recently acquired a sleeping car, and I brought up the idea of using the 8 separate bedrooms as 'social distancing compartments'. But I was told that guests would probably not like it because the windows are small, you can only see out one side of the train, and it would interfere with the onboard entertainment.

We've also been looking into UVC filtration for our duct work. I'd be interesting to see if anyone has done actual calculations to see what size of system would be required for a passenger car.

Eric


Hmm... I could see about coming up with an excel spreadsheet template to allow for the UVC filtration requirements to be calculated for a pasenger car. If, and I stress if, I can find the formulas (and I don't think a passenger car would be that difficult, as they are for the most part a regular internal shape, but even if the square footage would factor into these calculations that's relatively easy to figure out as well) making that template for people to use to calculate what they need for UVC filtration capacity shouldn't be that hard. You would additionally need to know the specifications of the specific unit you're dealing with, but I might be able to use the ones we got that Field made as a baseline value that can be modified depending on the specifications of the actual unit used. I'll at least look into finding the equations and figuring out how to configure a template.

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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:53 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
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Location: Leicester, MA.
Gents, a question comes to mind that might be a snag for implementing a UV cleaner into a ventilation system on a passenger car. How do these systems work? Are we talking some sort of standard ductwork, or are we looking at something like a unico system? If it's normal duct that makes implementing such a system easier, but if you've got a unico type setup I don't see an easy way to add these to that system...

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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:50 am 
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There are very few all-compartment/drawing room/bedroom/what-have-you sleepers in regular excursion service, in particular I can think of the heavyweight all-single-bedroom Pullman that RBMN has, the #2 Hickory Run, 14SBD, ex-Lehigh Gorge (1st), exx-Al Coleman, exxx-Jack Ferris/Private RR Cars, Inc., nee-Pullman Night Trail, Lot #6304, Plan #3980B, 1929.

But like so many of the later heavyweights, including many of the common Plan #3523 6C-3DR Glen-series sleepers, the 14SBD cars did get A/C'ed in the 30's, at which point the double-pane windows were sealed, so any such all-compartment cars would have to have the windows unsealed, that is if the car can be made serviceable/COT&S'ed for usage in the time/budget available.

And if you're talking lightweight sleepers, there are some of those in excursion usage as well (or could be made available for such), but then you're dealing with windows that were always sealed, no advantage of having originally been openable when making such a modification.

So it is probably less of a hassle to put in "temporary" compartmentalization such as the original example in an already-serviceable coach of some sort, rather than relying on the available sleepers (if we're talking an open-windows-with-fans approach).

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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:31 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:27 pm
Posts: 490
Location: Milford,Mass
Attachment:
File comment: Photo from Conway Daily Sun via the internet
Conway Scenic set to open in time for Father s Day Local Business News conwaydailysun.com - Copy.jpg # 3.jpg
Conway Scenic set to open in time for Father s Day Local Business News conwaydailysun.com - Copy.jpg # 3.jpg [ 78.04 KiB | Viewed 1330 times ]
Hi all
Here is a photo of the coach # 1133 taken by the local newspaper the Conway Daily Sun, Pat .


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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:41 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 914
Location: NJ
I'm pretty familiar with some of the passenger equipment used on tourist lines, at least here in the Northeast. Lackawanna Boontons and MUs, Readings, CNJs, CNs, and a few others. Just what ductwork do most of these cars have? In most cases, none.

Do we want to add ductwork to these cars to evenly distribute UV treated and filtered air? Some passengers will want their windows open, while others will want them closed. There would be absolutely no way to ensure a uniform distribution of that 'purified' air.

And does the UV technology really work? I don't think that has been proven yet.

I fear that the tourist railroad industry is going to have to wait until either this pandemic ends (if it ever does) or a reliable vaccine is widely available before things really open up again.

Ductwork in Strasburg's pristine coaches? NO!


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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:43 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
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UV technology does work and is proven. It kills the virus and does it essentially instantly.

The New York Subway is using it to sanitize subway cars. Not as a filter in ducts (at least not yet) but as a way to clean the cars, “washing” them with UV light.


https://untappedcities.com/2020/06/17/m ... bway-cars/

n mid May, the MTA began a pilot to use ultraviolet disinfecting technology to eradicate COVID-19 on New York City subways, the first of its kind on mass transit globally. Deemed a success, this past Friday, the MTA expanded the UV program at the MTA’s maintenance shops at Corona, Coney Island, Jamaica, and Pelham, and will clean more than 6,500 train cars in the MTA’s fleet using full spectrum Ultraviolet (including germicidal UV-C, UV-B and anti-bacterial UV-A).


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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:23 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
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Location: NJ
OK, I was not aware of MTA's program with the subway cars. It must require more than a few kW of power, though, and I'm sure must take place with no one around, or at least wearing protective clothing and goggles. Not with passengers onboard-

I don't think it's something that the average tourist line would want to mess with. Maybe have a contractor perform, on a daily, bi-weekly, weekly basis? It's going to be a long road back, sadly.


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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
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I'm quite certain you'll see small portable versions available before too long, it's basically a light bulb. However, as you said, it requires special clothing and goggles etc, so not useful during a run.

What it does show though, is that it works. And, that would imply that the same technology, built into some kind of unit in the ducting, should also be able to kill the virus and provide continuous cleaning and filtration of the air.

I get some newsletters for transit providers, and UV air treatment systems for on board buses are a huge conversation topic at the moment, and they're trying to design and build them as quickly as possible. Once they've done the R&D and got them working, it shouldn't be hard to convert the same tech to a passenger car... Just tell 'em you have an 80 foot long bus, LOL.



EDM wrote:
OK, I was not aware of MTA's program with the subway cars. It must require more than a few kW of power, though, and I'm sure must take place with no one around, or at least wearing protective clothing and goggles. Not with passengers onboard-

I don't think it's something that the average tourist line would want to mess with. Maybe have a contractor perform, on a daily, bi-weekly, weekly basis? It's going to be a long road back, sadly.


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 Post subject: Re: "Compartment car" on Conway Scenic
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
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This is where we have a real advantage, especially if you've said "Well, it's obvious we have to wait until 2021 to re-open..."

For once, the tech we need isn't tourist railroad and steam train specific. It's something that is going to be needed -everywhere-. How to sanitize your station? Hotels, business and restaurants are busy solving your problem right now. How to keep passenger safe? Bus lines, rapid transit and commuter rail operations are spending millions to figure that out and develop solutions. (Airlines should be too but for now they seem to be saying "Meh, screw it, pack 'em in!")

By the time you're ready to reopen, this stuff should be available in stock and off the shelf. It's not like going to Lowes and saying "Where's the Staybolt section?"


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