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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
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Location: Warszawa, Polska
nedsn3 wrote:
I once worked with a brilliant Russian emigre. He had won a gold and two silver medals in free-style wrestling in three Olympics. When he left the Soviet Union they took his medals away and removed his name from the rosters. When he told me that I thought "How petty, how uselessly stupid". Now we're doing the same.
Taney was against slavery and freed his slaves. He tried to stop the war that he knew was coming. The USCGC Taney won glory and fame as the Taney, not as the Dredd Scott or anything else.
You can't change history.
Ned


Except that our history is being torn down, painted over, erased or censored.

Given that history is kind of our business... how long before this madness shows up at our doors?

Playing "trains" does NOT make us exempt from this.

If you've got something with somebody's name on it (at this point it could be anyone, really, hero, villain or anyone in between), I hope you've got some railroad underground where you can hide this stuff for a few generations. They're tearing down statues of people who FOUGHT slavery. This isn't about anything other than a complete cultural revolution.

Time to take a break from reading railway history, and start learning about the history of communism. What's old is new again, and everything happening in the US right now, already happened ages ago in many other places.

Being protectors of history and culture, it's only a matter of time before you find yourself at the front lines of this "culture war". It's coming for us all.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
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And yet, here we are with this topic banished to the railfanning section. It’s not here because it has no relevance in interchange. I speculate that it’s here because of fear for the discussion it could possibly start. If there were a car at a museum named Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis, you’d bet your grits we’d be seeing this topic in the interchange. Still, I have yet to see topics on the USS Texas, USS Olympia, SS United States, S/V Bounty, Delta Queen, etc moved from the interchange.

As I’ve said before, this is a preemptive knee-jerk reaction on the part of the ship’s owner/caretaker. I do understand the logic but I do not agree with their damage control practices.

Should divided cars and Pullman porter exhibits be hidden away now too? To what extent must this all go? There’s a bench in the men’s restroom of the Pullman sleeper Breslin Tower. This is where the porter would lay down at night. Should that be removed?

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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:53 pm 
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Mount Royal wrote:
Still, I have yet to see topics on the USS Texas, USS Olympia, SS United States, S/V Bounty, Delta Queen, etc moved from the interchange.

Funny thing, I've heard rumblings from people in Olympia (I live not far south of there) who are demanding not only have the name of the Navy Sub USS Olympia, but Dewey's old flagship as well changed to something else, because the left-leaning vocal majority there will not accept the name of their town on a "ship of death" (a phrase used when the crew of the sub was told never to bring the sub into the Olympia port for any visits, something I think is totally unheard of anywhere else for namesake towns/ships)...

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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:58 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
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Location: Danbury, CT
p51 wrote:
Mount Royal wrote:
Still, I have yet to see topics on the USS Texas, USS Olympia, SS United States, S/V Bounty, Delta Queen, etc moved from the interchange.

Funny thing, I've heard rumblings from people in Olympia (I live not far south of there) who are demanding not only have the name of the Navy Sub USS Olympia, but Dewey's old flagship as well changed to something else, because the left-leaning vocal majority there will not accept the name of their town on a "ship of death" (a phrase used when the crew of the sub was told never to bring the sub into the Olympia port for any visits, something I think is totally unheard of anywhere else for namesake towns/ships)...


That’s sad. Though, I must admit that I’m really not surprised.

Interesting thoughts/questions-
Have Jewish people ever called for Auschwitz II- Birkenau to be torn down and its existence erased?
Will people want to rename Charleston’s Slave Market?
Will people want to tear down preserved plantations with their grand houses and slave quarters?
Would people have a problem with a rail car named King Cotton?

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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:50 pm 

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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
We're almost about to find out, what with the resurrection of restoration of the Mark Twain Zephyr and its power car named Injun Joe.................


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Mount Royal wrote:
Interesting thoughts/questions-
Have Jewish people ever called for Auschwitz II- Birkenau to be torn down and its existence erased?
Will people want to rename Charleston’s Slave Market?
Will people want to tear down preserved plantations with their grand houses and slave quarters?
Would people have a problem with a rail car named King Cotton?


Serious response: Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.

At least some people. Who will prove to have nothing better to do than to screech about the subject incessantly, and then run to the media when not placated.

The debate over Auschwitz goes back and forth, with some salient points on both sides--proof that it happened versus memorializing an atrocity. (We see this as well with battlefield sites all over. In some sections of the world, the joke is that you can't throw a rock anywhere without it landing on the site of some long-ago historic action, battle, or atrocity.)
Look at it another way: There continue to be people today who categorically dismiss any and every German automaker's offerings on the basis of the companies' decades-ago histories and involvement with Hitler's Germany. This is certainly their right--but at what point does it become as irrational as the person who passed on a particular car because the radio, when it was switched on, played punk or rock music and "contaminated" the car (yes, this really happened)?

AT THIS POINT, the "radicals" that push for "eradication" of any/every past things they find "offensive" are still a minority.

FOR NOW.

The numerous statue topplings by rioting mobs needs to be a "red flag warning", and not just for historians.

The problem we confront is that caving to them on minor and trivial issues emboldens them to advance further, and more irrationally. The view of many critics is that wiping the name "Taney" off the cutter is not only kowtowing to the "PC crowd" pre-emptively, but emboldening them further. Subsequent events in Baltimore--such as the toppling of a statue of Columbus and its being carried to the harbor and dumped in (not far from the ship in question)--seem to support that view considerably, in a city where a past mayor said of rioting mobs "we need to give them space to destroy." (Not a joke.)

The lesson FOR US:
If you have any artifacts or history that can, IN ANY PREPOSTEROUS STRETCH, be deemed "offensive" (or "racist," "sexist," whatever), you need to come up with a coherent examination and analysis that defends its existence and places it in a proper, but more contemporary, light.
"Jim Crow cars" tend to be our classic, and most obvious, example. But Pullman sleepers also fall under this rubric as well. At its most far-fetched, someone is going to demand your track be ripped up because it was originally built with rented slave labor. And saying "Aw, yer full of baloney!" isn't going to cut it, even if they ARE full of baloney (the line was donated by a Class One which owned two lines many states away which were built with slaves).


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:53 am 

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joe6167 wrote:

Except that our history is being torn down, painted over, erased or censored.



No.

Monuments to things that we no longer believe in are being removed.

Do you think it's also an issue that statues of Stalin were taken down in Eastern Europe?
How about Saddam Hussein in Iraq?

It's the same thing. People removing monuments are trying to "erase history", they're trying to stop glorifying people who do not deserve to be glorified (and in many cases were being monumentalized specifically as an attempt to actively oppress people).

These things, these people, and these symbols belong in museums, not in public monuments.

Yes, in some cases they overshoot their goal (by quite a bit), but your pearl clutching about "erasing history" is misguided.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:00 pm 

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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
The difference is between recognized, representative government (or owners, in cases of monuments on private land or things like this USCG ship) making the considered, thought-about effort to relocate an "obsolete" monument to storage or a museum setting, versus a mob appointing itself the "authority" to do so via destruction.

If you choose to bring up Saddam Hussein and Soviet statues, then you are essentially admitting, via analogy, that the objective of the mobs carrying out these actions is an outright overthrow of existing government.

There was another "radical" group that engaged in the destruction of historical monuments it found "offensive," by the way.

It's called the Taliban.

Think.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:50 pm 

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Ed Kapuscinski wrote:

It's the same thing. People removing monuments are trying to "erase history", they're trying to stop glorifying people who do not deserve to be glorified (and in many cases were being monumentalized specifically as an attempt to actively oppress people).


The story line today is many of those monuments were put up just to oppose people. I suspect an honest look at the times and the people would tell a much more complex story. I know I look back on my military time, 35 years in the past, with a new, perhaps more mature, appreciation of the military leaders I served under who had such a profound impact on my life.

When I measure my own emotions in this area, I can only image the emotions of the men who served and survived the Civil War. I suspect it isn't accident these monuments went up as the veterans were aging, now had the means to raise funds and had the life experience to realize just what they had been through. Perhaps for some they were glorifying the leaders who led them through the most amazing, scary, trying times of their lives.

I hope when some of these monuments do end up in museums, the complexity of the story is conveyed, just not the meme of the day.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
bbunge wrote:
The story line today is many of those monuments were put up just to oppose people.


I'm interested in hearing who the World War Two Memorial, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, and the FDR Monument in Washington D.C. are supposed to "oppress."
(Oddly enough, two of the three were erected in that same "50-60 years later" time frame we're all supposed to be so suspicious about when it comes to Civil War monuments......)

Quote:
I suspect an honest look at the times and the people would tell a much more complex story.


Your mistake is presuming people other than serious academic students of history WANT an "honest look."
Most people broaching such a subject only seek reaffirmation of their views or agendas.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:08 pm 

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Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
bbunge wrote:
The story line today is many of those monuments were put up just to oppose people.


I'm interested in hearing who the World War Two Memorial, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, and the FDR Monument in Washington D.C. are supposed to "oppress."


That's not what he's talking about and you know it.

In case you need a history lesson:
https://www.history.com/news/how-the-u- ... -monuments
https://www.splcenter.org/data-projects ... e#findings
https://theweek.com/speedreads/718507/s ... ights-eras
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/socie ... monuments/
https://docsouth.unc.edu/commland/monument/41/ (make sure to read the portion about the dedication)


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
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Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Yes, in some cases they overshoot their goal (by quite a bit),.....



This “overshooting” is what worries people. It sets a precedent that if allowed to continue, can lead to the “erasing history” that your “pearl grabbers” are so worried about, myself included. Where does it stop?

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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:37 pm 
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Mount Royal wrote:
This “overshooting” is what worries people. It sets a precedent that if allowed to continue, can lead to the “erasing history” that your “pearl grabbers” are so worried about, myself included. Where does it stop?

This is exactly the thing I'm worried about.
Whittling down is a normal tactic used by those who want to wear down the opposition.

Want to tear down a monument dedicated to the KKK or a 'hanging' tree? Most folks would support that.

Want to then tear down a monument dedicated to a Confederate solider or unit because in the end, it was a 'racist' war? Not many folks would fight that, but some would.

Want to then tear down a monument dedicated to a WW1 or WW2 solider because in the end, the military was segregated in each era so therefore it was racist cause as well, not to mention the rounding up of people of 'enemy' descent (and not just Japanese, by the way) in the US during WW2?
Who would support that? I'm certain that many would, when presented in that way.

But in the end, here's the bottom line to all this: MOB RULE SHOULDN'T GET TO DECIDE THIS. People shouldn't be scared to make the point they think is right, either way. But the problem here is that few people seem to understand your rights usually end the moment they infringe on someone else's.
The moment you topple a statue without a lawful decree or through coercion make someone do it for you, you are either:
-A vandal
-A conquering force
And in either case, I'm not to keen about seeing either on US soil.
It's easy to say these things are 'right' when they're popular or you're scared to look like you have hate in you, in public, to say otherwise.
It's what comes next that frightens the heck out of me, as should it scare you all.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:19 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
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p51 wrote:
Mount Royal wrote:
This “overshooting” is what worries people. It sets a precedent that if allowed to continue, can lead to the “erasing history” that your “pearl grabbers” are so worried about, myself included. Where does it stop?

This is exactly the thing I'm worried about.
Whittling down is a normal tactic used by those who want to wear down the opposition.

Want to tear down a monument dedicated to the KKK or a 'hanging' tree? Most folks would support that.

Want to then tear down a monument dedicated to a Confederate solider or unit because in the end, it was a 'racist' war? Not many folks would fight that, but some would.

Want to then tear down a monument dedicated to a WW1 or WW2 solider because in the end, the military was segregated in each era so therefore it was racist cause as well, not to mention the rounding up of people of 'enemy' descent (and not just Japanese, by the way) in the US during WW2?
Who would support that? I'm certain that many would, when presented in that way.

But in the end, here's the bottom line to all this: MOB RULE SHOULDN'T GET TO DECIDE THIS. People shouldn't be scared to make the point they think is right, either way. But the problem here is that few people seem to understand your rights usually end the moment they infringe on someone else's.
The moment you topple a statue without a lawful decree or through coercion make someone do it for you, you are either:
-A vandal
-A conquering force
And in either case, I'm not to keen about seeing either on US soil.
It's easy to say these things are 'right' when they're popular or you're scared to look like you have hate in you, in public, to say otherwise.
It's what comes next that frightens the heck out of me, as should it scare you all.


Hear, hear! Well said, Lee.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:21 am 

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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
bbunge wrote:
The story line today is many of those monuments were put up just to oppose people.


I'm interested in hearing who the World War Two Memorial, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, and the FDR Monument in Washington D.C. are supposed to "oppress."


That's not what he's talking about and you know it.


That's THE STORY LINE. The one being advanced by opponents with an agenda.

It's NOT universal, inarguable truth.

It's at least arguably likely to be true in many instances. IN THOSE INSTANCES, you advance a well-reasoned, rational, non-emotionally-driven argument to the authorities in charge that the monuments in question should be removed, relocated, sold off, or whatever.

If you grant unto yourself the "license" to deface, damage, or destroy some monument you dislike, you then have to grant unto others the "license" to deface, damage, or destroy whatever arises in its place (typically some ad hoc monstrosity of a creation assigned by the "mob" to some LGBTQ minority "artist" as "social justice", in some cases so far).


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