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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:39 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:25 pm
Posts: 302
Quote:
I'm waiting to hear what Taneytown, Maryland (on the former PRR from York, Pa. to Frederick, now part of the Walkersville Southern) does........

Taneytown is well north of the tracks of WS, which end at the Glade Road crossing about a mile south of Woodsboro. On the north side of the crossing the tracks belong to the Maryland Midland Railway, although for about another mile those tracks have long sat unused up Woodsboro, where the MMID serves a stone quarry.

The old PRR line continues north to Taneytown and active service ends at a propane company. I believe the tracks remain in place up to the PA border but are heavily buried in brush and trees, and some of the latter are 18 inches thick or more. Yes, it has been a very long time since any trains ran down those tracks!


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:13 am 

Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 11:28 pm
Posts: 17
Just paint "Who was a racist." under the cutter's nameboards. I think that could satisfy everyone.


Quote:
While I'm waiting for the fecal matter to hit the propeller, so to speak, I now start to wonder when and how the current roving mob of "political correctness police" will come around to rail museums.
There are "Jim Crow" cars on display. There are at least three museums/operations distinctly Civil War-themed. Displays on Pullman porters, no matter how "politically correct," may be attacked by indignant activists who don't care that Pullman gave Blacks a way out of poverty, only "Whites keeping Blacks down."


Now, you see, i personally find this interesting because there is definitely a need to display the bad aspects of railroading which currently are not displayed. I don't think anyone is complaining about displaying Jim Crow cars, but they should be displayed As Jim Crow cars, and they should make the point that they were Jim Crow cars.

Coverage of subjects such as the Railroad's participation in Segregation is often lacking, while coverage of other aspects (Like, say, the Pennsylvania shipping consolidations to Manchuria while Japan ruled it, the Pacific Electric/UP/SP participation in Japanese internment camp relocations) is utterly nonexistent.

You do it in this post, too - Pullman Porters weren't a way out of poverty because of the Benevolence of Pullman, they were a way out of poverty because they Unionized.

I think that at the end of the day, "PC Police" coming for rail museums would be a good thing. There's the mentality that's so pervasive that Railroads can do no wrong, and also that making any sort of political statement somehow compromises your museum. In reality, ignoring the bad things railroads have done compromises a museum far more.

But the flip-side is if you're displaying negative aspects you have to make the point they were wrong. I see a problem with displaying a bench a porter was made to sleep in if it's just displayed as A Bench A Porter Slept In; it should make the point the Porter was made to sleep in it. If you just display a Jim Crow Coach as a Rail Car With Divider it's wrong, and it should be making the point that the Railroad put that divider in place, and so on and so on.

A train museum should show how railroads shaped us, both good and bad. But i never seem to find the bad.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:04 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9730
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
This "always look on the bright side of life" aspect is hardly unique to rail museums. Just about every museum that hasn't made it a central mission to engage in "social justice" and "political correctness" (or, instead, exists to educate about an atrocity--think the Holocaust Museum) instead exists for the glorification of its subject. Corvettes are glorified at a Corvette Museum; sports are glorified at their Halls of Fame; winery/brewery tours don't discuss alcoholism; etc. Atrocities and bad examples may get used as laughing stocks--the Yugo, the Corvair, etc.

The valid question is whether the "PC Police" coming around would be offering constructive criticism or destructive criticism.

Constructive: "This museum has nothing that minorities can relate to. You need to show their contributions to the overall story, too, and it'll help attract those people and educate them, and make your mission relevant to them. How can we help?"

Destructive: "Railroads perpetuated racism and should be destroyed and sold off to pay reparations!"


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:05 pm 

Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 11:28 pm
Posts: 17
The thing is - a lot of museums do freely talk about how horrible their subjects are. At the Imperial War Museum in Duxford, UK, there are exhibits about how horrible nuclear war would be, right next to nuclear bombers.

Your idea of "Constructive" contradicts directly with your previous statement - oftentimes, the relationships of railroads to minorities were antagonistic and destructive - the way West for the UP was paved by the trail of tears, i needn't mention playing black workers and white unions against eachother, etc etc.

The thing is, any criticism similar to your "Constructive" example will be seen as politics, except fantasy-land things such as everyone living in harmony between the end of segregation and the present day, Great Benefactor Pullman and the like.

Also, i don't think anyone is suggesting your destructive example. I have never met one person who has said that.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 980
Location: Warszawa, Polska
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
joe6167 wrote:

Except that our history is being torn down, painted over, erased or censored.



No.

Monuments to things that we no longer believe in are being removed.

Do you think it's also an issue that statues of Stalin were taken down in Eastern Europe?
How about Saddam Hussein in Iraq?

It's the same thing. People removing monuments are trying to "erase history", they're trying to stop glorifying people who do not deserve to be glorified (and in many cases were being monumentalized specifically as an attempt to actively oppress people).

These things, these people, and these symbols belong in museums, not in public monuments.

Yes, in some cases they overshoot their goal (by quite a bit), but your pearl clutching about "erasing history" is misguided.


That's giving this mindless communist horde a lot more credit than they deserve as they have no idea what they are even destroying, only that they MUST destroy everything in sight.

For example, BLM activists were going bananas on a statue of Taduesz Kościuszko in the US, and afterwards a Polish journalist was passing through the neighbourhood asking residents if they had any understanding who Kościuszko was (and his support of abolition, etc.), and they had no idea, but they sure were shocked and disappointed once they were told.

And there is an identical statue here in Warsaw, and it too was vandalized with BLM graffiti... BLM is not even a Polish issue... has nothing to do with this country... Yet more and more left-wing insane political discourse is being imported here. I find Antifa graffiti in my own neighbourhood often enough (and man those people are violent), and I'm also seeing "ACAB" graffiti as well... how many Poles even know what the heck ACAB means? And YES there is an analogous Polish expression that everyone does know.

So yeah, tearing down Saddam Hussein is one thing. But are you saying then, that the values of someone like Kościuszko no longer apply to the United States? How about George Washington? Jefferson? Grant?

In Canada they're tearing down statues of Sir John A. MacDonald, the first prime minister of Canada. They're even attacking churches...

In the UK, they were attacking statues of Churchill, and the communist media was demonizing anyone who DARED protect those statues from the mob...

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
The difference is between recognized, representative government (or owners, in cases of monuments on private land or things like this USCG ship) making the considered, thought-about effort to relocate an "obsolete" monument to storage or a museum setting, versus a mob appointing itself the "authority" to do so via destruction.

If you choose to bring up Saddam Hussein and Soviet statues, then you are essentially admitting, via analogy, that the objective of the mobs carrying out these actions is an outright overthrow of existing government.

There was another "radical" group that engaged in the destruction of historical monuments it found "offensive," by the way.

It's called the Taliban.

Think.


ISIS really went to town on that as well, and given the huge swath of territory they came to occupy, the number of ancient historic sites (even those of civilizations, religions and values long since forgotten, is truly staggering. They also destroyed countless islamic sites as well. Figure that out...

_________________
CNR 6167 in Guelph, ON or "How NOT To Restore A Steam Locomotive"


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:49 am 

Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 11:28 pm
Posts: 17
You've typed a lot, but you've said nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:59 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9730
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Connie4800 wrote:
You've typed a lot, but you've said nothing.


If you actually say/think that, then you are wilfully choosing to ignore or reject the viewpoints of others, most likely merely for not believing as you do. In other words, you are perpetuating the "national problem" completely.

Quote:
The thing is, any criticism similar to your "Constructive" example will be seen as politics, except fantasy-land things such as everyone living in harmony between the end of segregation and the present day, Great Benefactor Pullman and the like.


Because it is.

ANY history account that goes anywhere beyond pure "who/what/when/where" data, or any attempt to "correct the historical record," is engaging in selective storytelling to advance an agenda of one kind or another. In the past 70 or so years, we've seen the pendulum of history story-telling in the United States swing violently from promoting the "greatness of the United States" (from a white, Christian, Anglo/Euro-centric, conservative perspective, of course) to condemning everything that formerly was viewed as making the U.S. "great." And a good deal of this is being pursued for the promotion of certain ideologies.
In other words, the promotion of history and history education is being used for political purposes.
Part of this has to do with the "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." If you are trained to viewed everything in the context of global warming or racism or "manifest destiny" or physics or religion, that's how you're going to look at steam locomotives in a hall, the Enola Gay, a library's selection, art masterpieces hanging on a wall, etc.

Is it the role of a railroad museum, auto museum, etc. to be used as a lecture series to address "climate change"? (Note: the quotes do not reflect any skepticism on my part that it's happening, but rather the use of the issue to promote socio-political change.) Is it the role of a transit or trolley museum to be used as a podium to promote mass transit as it is now?

Quote:
Also, i don't think anyone is suggesting your destructive example. I have never met one person who has said that.


Hard as it may be to believe, I have read at least one such essay, essentially demanding that railroad companies descended from companies that ever used slaves in its construction (they were typically hired locally as "temp" workers from their "owners") be seized, sold off, and the monies put towards reparations payments. And I don't think the author was pulling a Jonathan Swift "Modest Proposal" satire, either. People with such extremist ideologies DO exist, and sadly they are sometimes taken seriously, just as Mussolini, etc. were.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:44 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 980
Location: Warszawa, Polska
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
joe6167 wrote:

Except that our history is being torn down, painted over, erased or censored.



No.

Monuments to things that we no longer believe in are being removed.

Do you think it's also an issue that statues of Stalin were taken down in Eastern Europe?
How about Saddam Hussein in Iraq?

It's the same thing. People removing monuments are trying to "erase history", they're trying to stop glorifying people who do not deserve to be glorified (and in many cases were being monumentalized specifically as an attempt to actively oppress people).

These things, these people, and these symbols belong in museums, not in public monuments.

Yes, in some cases they overshoot their goal (by quite a bit), but your pearl clutching about "erasing history" is misguided.


Last night in Portland, Antifa toppled statues of Lincoln (and Roosevelt). Back in June they toppled a statue of Washington.

So if people no longer "believe in" Washington and Lincoln, and those guys no longer "deserve to be glorified," I guess that's it for the United States. I guess antifa wants to return to being ruled by the British crown and slavery?

And if Lincoln and Washington don't deserve to be glorified, than who should be?

See for yourself:

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/13 ... 18049?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/13 ... 20672?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/13 ... 01346?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/13 ... 07232?s=20

Oh look at this!:

Quote:
Antifa rioters smashed up the Oregon Historical Society tonight in downtown Portland in addition to destroying statues of Lincoln & Roosevelt.


https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/13 ... 81280?s=20

How many of youse guys work or play in "historical societies"? Y'all got targets on your backs now...

If you want to see what's going on, Andy Ngo covers a lot of it.

Here's a report by Tim Pool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA3JOzqrAYw

Quote:
6:10: They smashed the historical society??? Come on, now they're just coming after American history...

Bonus: NYC is levying $15,000 fines on synagogues for conducting ceremonies, but then gives antifa rioters a free pass (to congregate and riot, even with COIVD). NYC is specifically cracking down on The Jews... which is kinda weird...



This discussion is WAY too sterile, to understand what is really going on and what is at stake.

Here is a poster from a "counter-protest" the other day in Denver where a "TV station security guard" shot a "Trump supporter" in the face (killing him instantly).

Antifa brings cans of soup to throw at police.

Image

Does the Hammer and Sickle have ANY place in American society? And as you can see, they aren't even hiding behind the world "socialist" anymore... it's the Denver Communists. When I was at university (in Canada), the halls were constantly plastered with posters celebrating communism, socialism, marx and the rest...

This poster also shows the connection between the BLM movement and the Antifa/Black Bloc/Communist Revolutionary Types. The BLM founders all claim to be "trained Marxists"... and frankly, their manifesto is going to get everyone killed, nevermind the black community... nevermind actually helping anyone at all...

Communism is coming to America (Canada too, that's why I left). I recommend reading some history books, especially since the Anglosphere is about a century behind the eastern world. Everything that is happening today has already happened and been written about, just in Slavic and Asian languages...

I recommend The Gulag Archipelago, or the lectures of Yuri Bezmenov to "wet your beak".

Here's a few from my personal collection, of Antifa graffiti I find in my own neighbourhood here in Warsaw:

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As you can see, the person on the ground about to be clubbed with a bike is shown with a swastika on their chest. In their mind, literally everyone and anyone is/can be a nazi. These people are very sick and delusional in imagining that there are "nazis" everywhere. This is even more ironic being in Poland, where 5.75 million Polish Civilians were murdered by the Nazis, and Warsaw was completely destroyed in a systematic fashion, by the Nazis, prior to withdrawing from the city.

So yeah, they have no problem beating almost-to-death anyone they think is a nazi. For kicks, sneak into an antifa protest and find some random person and just start screaming "look, a nazi" and the mob will instantly turn and attack that person, even if they are the most loyal, devout Antifa...

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They are overt in their violent intentions. Look what happened to "landlords"/landowners in China during Mao's communist revolution. They literally want to repeat that. And as I mentioned, they think everyone is a Nazi (EVEN IN a country victimized by the actual NSDAP!), so "Kill Nazis" effectively means "Kill Everyone".

For a comparison. One day I walked out, and found that someone had spray painted the word "Skinheads" on the same wall as "Kill Landlords"... but it was literally just the word "Skinheads"... no threats, no "kill _____". I scowled, shrugged and said "Bravo?" [slow clap] "Stunning and Brave?"... "you really showed them..."

_________________
CNR 6167 in Guelph, ON or "How NOT To Restore A Steam Locomotive"


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9730
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
More:

https://www.koin.com/local/oregon-histo ... struction/

https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/10 ... erred.html

You want to keep pretending you're "safe" from this because you're "not political"?????? Or even that you carry out "outreach" and are "accommodating"???

Quote:
One artifact you’ll no longer see on your visit is this Afro-American Heritage bicentennial commemorative quilt — which was taken and damaged during the riot.

The 1970s quilt was sewn by 15 black women from Portland who entrusted it to the museum’s care. It will no longer be on display this month — as crews work to restore it.

It’s hard to ignore the irony that this institution — which shares the history of Oregon’s Indigenous people, works to highlight the Black experience and reveals the state’s history of white supremacy — would be a victim of vandalism among these months-long protests.


Keep your head in the sand. Maybe the rest of us will save what's left.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T Marine Controversy: USCG Cutter Taney Has Name Remov
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:12 pm 

Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 11:28 pm
Posts: 17
This thread has stopped being related to the topic at hand - which is how to handle historically rocky subjects in regard to museums - and has become a political grandstand. Can a mod please lock it?


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