It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:07 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:51 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:28 pm
Posts: 444
Someone please help me to understand the 'science' behind this.
1. Is this same harsh policy/activity being applied to
a. maritime entities
b. trucking entities
c. the aviation industry

2. Railroads are much more energy (and presumably carbon)-efficient than aviation or trucking. Why the zeal on the part of regulators? What am I missing?

3. Is the entire railroad industry facing, now or soon, this same kind of draconian mandate?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:19 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:48 pm
Posts: 181
I can tell you for sure that it is being applied to the trucking industry, at least in CA. All commercial trucks must have a diesel engine that meets CARB specifications regardless of the age of the truck itself to operate within state. https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/program ... regulation


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:42 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11481
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
traindude70 wrote:
Basically the Lefts plan to fix locomotive emissions was to mandate an impossible leap in technology and destroy an industry. I'm sure there will be lots of screeching but eh enjoy railroading while it lasts.


"Never ascribe to willful malice that which can be ascribed instead to blithering incompetence."

Actions have consequences, and at times there has been no greater harm foisted upon humankind and civilization than by those who firmly thought they were "doing the right thing."


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:11 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 746
A lotta TL;DR going on here. (I did try to read most of it however)

As I gather this, the basics are, that G&W was in possession of emissions controlled locomotives, and they failed to maintain and document them as emissions compliant, so as part of the punishment, they will destroy 88 older, non-emissions units that would of never got them in trouble in the first place.

In any case, other shortlines (or even non shortlines) should be a bit nervous today.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:26 pm
Posts: 236
Maybe we need retain the services of an environmental attorney, before we do any maintenance.

It been my experience that bureaucrats, like humans beings in general, like to constantly improve things and tweek things, at least in their own minds, sometimes to the extreme. There has been talk about requiring congress to approve any new regulations that entail significant economic impact. The original EPA was concerned about obvious pollution, like burning rivers.

In my opinion, the permanent bureaucracy in Washington, in the last 12 or 14 years have become extremely partisan. Even if there is a Republican in the White House that appoints the heads of agencies, that are a little to right, it doesn't seem to moderate the agencies.

“If a little is great, and a lot is better, then way too much is just about right!”
— Mae West


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:29 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:46 am
Posts: 148
Location: Elko, NV
Way back on Page 1 of this thread there is a post with some language that seems to exempt Class III carriers from the requirements of these regulations. I have skimmed through the Federal Register notice at the end of that link a couple times now and don't see where that language appears at least in that document. I did however see the following:

§ 1033.610 Small railroad provisions.

In general, the provisions of this part apply for all locomotives, including those owned by Class II and Class III railroads. This section describes how these provisions apply for railroads meeting the definition of ‘‘small railroad’’ in § 1033.901. (Note: The term ‘‘small railroad’’ excludes all Class II railroads and some Class III railroads, such as those owned by large parent companies.)

(a) Locomotives become subject to the provisions of this part when they become ‘‘new’’ as defined in § 1033.901. Under that definition, a locomotive is ‘‘new’’ when first assembled, and generally becomes ‘‘new’’ again when remanufactured. As an exception to this general concept, locomotives that are owned and operated by railroads meeting the definition of ‘‘small railroad’’ in § 1033.901 do not become ‘‘new’’ when remanufactured, unless they were previously certified to EPA emission standards. Certificate holders may require written confirmation from the owner/operator that the locomotive qualifies as a locomotive that is owned and operated by a small railroad. Such written confirmation to a certificate holder is deemed to also be a submission to EPA and is thus subject to the reporting requirements of 40 CFR 1068.101.

(b) The provisions of subpart I of this part apply to all owners and operators of locomotives subject to this part 1033. However, the regulations of that subpart specify some provisions that apply only for Class I freight railroads, and others that apply differently to Class I freight railroads and other railroads.

(c) We may exempt new locomotives that are owned or operated by small railroads from the prohibition against remanufacturing a locomotive without a certificate of conformity as specified in this paragraph (c). This exemption is only available in cases where no certified remanufacturing system is available for the locomotive. For example, it is possible that no remanufacturer will certify a system for very old locomotive models that comprise a tiny fraction of the fleet and that are remanufactured infrequently. We will grant the exemption in all cases in which no remanufacturing system has been certified for the applicable engine family and model year. We may also grant an exemption where we determine that a certified system is unavailable. We may consider the issue of excessive costs in determining the availability of certified systems. If we grant this exemption for a previously certified locomotive, you are required to return the locomotive to its previously certified configuration. Send your request for such exemptions to the Designated Compliance Officer.

(d) Non-Class I railroads that do not meet the definition of ‘‘small railroad’’ in § 1033.901 may ask that their remanufactured locomotives be excluded from the definition of ‘‘new’’
in § 1033.901 in cases where no certified remanufacturing system is available for the locomotive. We will grant the exemption in all cases in which no remanufacturing system has been certified for the applicable engine family and model year. If we grant this exemption for a previously certified locomotive, you are required to return the locomotive to its previously certified configuration. Send your request for such exemptions to the Designated Compliance Officer.


For the record, the referenced definition of Small Railroad at § 1033.901 states the following:

Small railroad means a railroad meeting the criterion of paragraph (1) of this definition, but not either of the criteria of paragraphs (2) and (3) of this definition.

(1) To be considered a small railroad, a railroad must qualify as a small business under the Small Business Administration’s regulations in 13 CFR part 121.

(2) Class I and Class II railroads (and their subsidiaries) are not small railroads.

(3) Intercity passenger and commuter railroads are excluded from this definition of small railroad. Note that this paragraph (3) does not exclude tourist railroads.


Bottom line, it would appear that a mom and pop shortline or tourist railroad would have nothing to worry about under these regulations provided they do not buy and then remanufacture a locomotive that already has an EPA tier compliance certification or otherwise acquire a new locomotive, and that old power such as the mentioned proverbial Alco S-2 could be exempted anyway. The rules would however apply to a shortline owned by a larger company, such as G&W. Anybody read anything else into this language?

Jeff Moore
Elko, NV


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 2557
Location: Sackets Harbor, NY
Going off on a tangent politically is a sure loser. I'm as pro rail as you can get.

However, the truth ( inconvenient as it may be ) is the the class 8 trucking industry has been producing trucks that are several magnitudes cleaner than even the Tier 4 diesels for lots of years and frankly making the railroad locomotives GROSS polluters.

There's no secret that right around the corner the EPA is going to require that new locomotives achieve Tier 5 emissions and the requirements to get to Tier 5 are FAR tougher than Tier 4.

The OEM's have as much as said that the only way they can economically get to Tier 5 is to use natural gas or hydrogen.

That's the future, like it or not. Ross Rowland


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:02 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:33 pm
Posts: 125
Hopefully our like-minded tourist railroad folks who support these mandates will voluntarily take one for the team and disable their units as well...before it's too late. (or convert to proper standards)


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:07 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2213
Quote:
"If I read it right, you can buy one of those locomotives as long as you put a Tier 3 or 4 engine in it."

If I read it right, they can keep from scrapping the frame if they put a Tier 3 or 4 engine in it... and then sell it once they get a revised COC or other documentation.

Unless the fix is in to ensure they get fully destroyed. I find it hard to believe that the Government spokesmen haven't read the plain language. That may imply that the plain language won't matter when the time comes -- perhaps to get a Tier 3 COC for an SD7.

_________________
R.M.Ellsworth


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:38 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1773
Location: New Franklin, OH
JDLX wrote:
Way back on Page 1 of this thread there is a post with some language that seems to exempt Class III carriers from the requirements of these regulations. I have skimmed through the Federal Register notice at the end of that link a couple times now and don't see where that language appears at least in that document.

Jeff - page 51 of 256, bottom of the third column.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
Turner of Wrenches, Drawer of Things


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:46 am
Posts: 148
Location: Elko, NV
Thank you Eric, I missed that.

I note in the paragraphs after what you originally quoted the EPA discussed the comments they received, which as can be imagined ranged from no exceptions to anyone to giving allowances for small railroads. The last couple paragraphs in that section read:

"In finalizing this new approach, EPA believes that continuing to exempt Class III railroads with annual revenues under $25.5 million while including all Class II railroads in the existing fleet program is a reasonable approach that addresses both industry concerns regarding costs while also recognizing that small railroads do contribute to air pollution in areas they service including nonattainment areas throughout the U.S.

We are clarifying our definition that intercity passenger or commuter railroads are not included as railroads that are small businesses because they are typically governmental or are large businesses. Due to the nature of their business, these entities are largely funded through tax transfers and other subsidies. Thus, the only passenger railroad that could qualify for the small railroad provisions will be small passenger railroads related to tourism."
(Emphasis added).

Bottom line, from what is said here and in the sections I quoted above, there is nothing apparent in the 2008 regulations preventing a Class III carrier or most tourist railroads from continuing to maintain or remanufacture existing locomotive fleets, provided the existing fleets do not contain any power with a prior EPA emission certification AND that said Class III carrier or tourist railroad are not owned by a "Large Business".

Jeff Moore
Elko, NV


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:11 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:29 am
Posts: 318
Ok,it looks to me like the situation for small class 3 and tourist operations is simply to no longer Rebuild, but REPAIR your locomotives....
Basically, as I'm reading it, you can replace an engine...prime mover....to repair the locomotive, call it "like replacement"....
So, you could still change everything out...just don't do it all at once and don't call it a rebuild....


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:44 pm
Posts: 52
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

—Martin Niemöller


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1773
Location: New Franklin, OH
eze240 wrote:
Ok,it looks to me like the situation for small class 3 and tourist operations is simply to no longer Rebuild, but REPAIR your locomotives....
Basically, as I'm reading it, you can replace an engine...prime mover....to repair the locomotive, call it "like replacement"....
So, you could still change everything out...just don't do it all at once and don't call it a rebuild....

I don’t think you have to call it anything other than normal maintenance. If you have less than 500 employees, don’t exceed $25m in revenue counting any holding company plus affiliates, and your locos don’t already have an EPA ticket, you don’t have to worry about it. At least that’s what I get out of it.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
Turner of Wrenches, Drawer of Things


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: G&W to destroy 88 locomotives as part of settlement with
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:20 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 746
EPA has thought of that. They define rebuilding as "replacing all the power assemblies in any 5 year period".


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], robert havens and 99 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: