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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:10 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
randyminter wrote:
Hi all,


An even bigger piece of advice is really to get to know your people and don't avoid open communication among staff and volunteers. If you really try to know and engage you will better be able to manage and work toward common goals at the same time. Don't be an Ostrich with your head in the sand and think this can't possibly be a part of your museum/organization as it has been clearly demonstrated that it has and can be.

You might consider policies not to have anyone under 18 years of age volunteer without the direct supervision of a custodial adult. Also NEVER put yourself in a position of being alone with anyone under age. I won't even meet a member of the opposite sex alone without at least being in a public setting or in an office with a door that is open. There is way too much room for differing accounts of events with that method of operation. People get unhappy when things don't go their way and can be pretty vindictive. That is just food for thought.

One other thing that is slightly off-topic is in addition to background checks you should consider requiring credit checks of anyone handling any financial transactions about a set amount you are willing to lose. How many of you have heard stories about PTA and church personnel making off with sums of money over a long period of years to purchase their needed lifestyle?

End of Rant.



Randy, this echoes a situation I became aware of many years ago, a debilitating fraud at a veteran's organization.

A new member showed up, with a compelling story. Relocated due to employment; wanted the comeraderie of other vets. Became very active in the Post; and was willing to do just about anything for the betterment of it. Pretty soon, the individual was elected Treasurer and shortly thereafter checks started bouncing.

It wasn't clear in my conversation with the President whether the (former) Treasurer's actions were a designed fraud or whether he fell prey to temptation after realizing there was inadequate checks and balances.. A lot of embezzlement is the latter, where people attempt to turn the funds in their custody into an interest free loan, when they run into the eefects of shortcomings like a gambling habit/addiction or encounter a financial problem such as medical bills or a job loss.

The one thing church groups, PTA's and fraternal/voluntary associations typically share is a perpetual labor shortage; this produces two serious problems. The first is an unwillingness to see unusual zeal as a potential problem; the second is shortcutting ordinary financial controls such as segregation of duties and periodic independent review. In my professional opinion; these are more important than credit checks, because it can unless a person's credit score is littered with defaults, the CR doesn't help to determine when a person with ordinary credit will encounter the first part of the "fraud triangle": incentive/pressure, so the predictive value isn't that good, unless you are going to encounter the expense to periodically obtain the report.

In entirely too many cases; a Treasurer has both custody and recordkeeping duties, especially with single signature checks, often because it allows expeditious payment between monthly or quarterly meetings.

Of course; this has hit multiple tourist/heritage operations:

https://www.wfmz.com/news/area/berks/vo ... c63a3.html

https://www.tiogapublishing.com/news/ti ... 0c1a4.html


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:25 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2213
Quote:

On topic: wasn't Krause accused of some child-related deviate activity, that due diligence should have found before he was brought on board?

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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
Overmod wrote:
Quote:

On topic: wasn't Krause accused of some child-related deviate activity, that due diligence should have found before he was brought on board?


Yes.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
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“ As inspiration, I drew upon my years of experience as an Assistant Scoutmaster and District Program Chairman with the Boy Scouts back home. Much of the policy is cribbed from the BSA policy, as it specifically covers interactions between adults and minors.”

I'd say that policy didn't exactly do the job.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:30 pm 
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Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
I was the youngest founding member of an HO scale model railroad module group where I grew up.
Among some other ridiculous experiences I had (in the mid 80s) was due to a disgusting member of the group who took an unhealthy interest in me, I think when I was about 14 or 15 but I looked much younger than my age for most of my youth.
A few times, he 'brushed' up against me and would have the creepiest expression after I'd turn around. Last time he did that, I took out my pocket knife and said I'd cut something off of him the next time he did that, and I'm sure my expression showed I was dead serious. He had a very surprised and scared look. I was dead serious at the time, in an era where kids weren't supposed to call out adults for anything.
He never got close again and he quit coming around soon afterward that I remember.
NOBODY CARED when I brought it up to the membership. One member told me I was a "big boy" and I should solve my own problems. Hence, the threat to him at the next meeting.
This and a few other things caused me to leave the hobby for over 20 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
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Anyone copying the R&GVRM Youth Protection Policy should be wary of this line in the Responsibilities of Museum Volunteers section:

    Suspected abuse must be reported to the proper authority through the chain of command immediately

I am not an attorney, but it seems to me that the "through the chain of command " part will be a problem for your volunteers who are mandated reporters (doctors, nurses, teachers, law enforcement officers, etc) in your state.

In the state where I live, state law requires that mandated reporters directly report all suspected child abuse to either the state's child welfare agency or to the designated delegate if the abuse happened at a hospital, school, agency, or facility with a designated delegate. My understanding is that mandated reporters are required to maintain confidentiality and may not discuss the abuse allegations with others. Failing to report abuse is a misdemeanor and being convicted of a misdemeanor will result in the revocation or suspension of professional credentials (teaching and medical licenses, peace officer certifications, etc.) issued by the state.

Otto posted above that the R&GVRM policy was adapted from a Boy Scouting policy. The "through the chain of command" clause actually makes a lot of sense for Scouting because the employees of "child service organizations" are mandated reporters in my state. I also presume that the Boy Scouts have designated delegates to receive abuse reports.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 pm
Posts: 179
Location: Utah
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:

I'd say that policy didn't exactly do the job.


On the contrary, the BSA policies were created specifically because of those kinds of tragedies. Most of the lawsuits being publicized currently relate to claims that the BSA covered up the abuse since it was never made public and mostly cover abuse that occurred before two-deep leadership requirements were instituted. My respect goes to the leaders who recognized the problem and instead of pretending they did not see, got together and wrote up a very effective mandatory training regimen to prevent it from happening again.

I worked professionally for the BSA for four years, did all of the youth protection and leadership training. I note that most of the problems I saw were caused by parents of the boys who considered our precautions stupid and reactionary. The actual leadership in my council were very careful. It would be worth actually reading and understanding it, instead of making snarky comments about its origins.

I'm glad Otto and Randy and I'm sure others recognize the resource that the BSA protection programming can be and hope that all rail organizations that take on volunteers adopt similar programs. Model Railroad clubs especially would benefit greatly.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2726
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Utah Josh wrote:
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:

I'd say that policy didn't exactly do the job.


On the contrary, the BSA policies were created specifically because of those kinds of tragedies. Most of the lawsuits being publicized currently relate to claims that the BSA covered up the abuse since it was never made public and mostly cover abuse that occurred before two-deep leadership requirements were instituted. My respect goes to the leaders who recognized the problem and instead of pretending they did not see, got together and wrote up a very effective mandatory training regimen to prevent it from happening again.

I worked professionally for the BSA for four years, did all of the youth protection and leadership training. I note that most of the problems I saw were caused by parents of the boys who considered our precautions stupid and reactionary. The actual leadership in my council were very careful. It would be worth actually reading and understanding it, instead of making snarky comments about its origins.

I'm glad Otto and Randy and I'm sure others recognize the resource that the BSA protection programming can be and hope that all rail organizations that take on volunteers adopt similar programs. Model Railroad clubs especially would benefit greatly.


Mr. Josh is right, the vast bulk of BSA litigation comes from before their policies went into place.

The real issue is that organizations, whether it be churches, universities, scouting, or whatever tend to fail pretty badly when it comes to dealing with these issues. They all seem to follow a similar pattern of cover-up, followed by the problem growing exponentially worse. I'm sure the people who run UPHS didn't want to think about this being an issue, but they placed their organization and the public at significant risk by their actions. The policies some groups, like the BSA employ are a direct result of those painful lessons. There's no need to relive the pattern or reinvent the wheel.

Most people aren't on their railroad museum, railroad historical society, or model railroad organization board to worry about pedophiles preying on young members of members of the visiting public, but it's a reality of any organization that caters to the public and attracts youth. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. Having policies in place and knowing how to correctly deal with an issue when it arises will go a long way to both protect organizations and more importantly protect the public.

I'm gathering materials and will propose at a future HRA conference we do a session on such policies.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:51 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
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wilkinsd wrote:
I'm gathering materials and will propose at a future HRA conference we do a session on such policies.

Great idea and good to hear the HRA will be taking the lead in guiding member organizations in this difficult area. Years ago when I was looking into this, my approach was guided by the existing state laws regarding the types of work that minors were allowed to do. State employment laws in the state that had jurisdiction over the work we were doing applied to all work, regardless of whether or not the employee was paid or volunteer. Minors were excluded from proscribed dangerous activities and/or work areas with certain exceptions if their work/presence was part of an educational program. So my approach was to work with the student-volunteer through his or her school district under their STEM program. My recollection is that one of the many benefits of this was that it incorporated the protections from the nefarious types of activities being discussed already in place in the school district. These included rules and policies for supervision, background checks, and reporting of suspicious/aberrant behavior.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:08 pm 
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Not quite the same but I remember reading a creepy story about some guy who would dress up in railroad garb have a huge keychain full of keys and hang around a railroad Museum that he was not a part of and look for opportunities to give tours to mothers with children. Apparently the position of the museum was not our employee/volunteer not our problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:27 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Scranton Yard wrote:
wilkinsd wrote:
I'm gathering materials and will propose at a future HRA conference we do a session on such policies.

Great idea and good to hear the HRA will be taking the lead in guiding member organizations in this difficult area. Years ago when I was looking into this, my approach was guided by the existing state laws regarding the types of work that minors were allowed to do. State employment laws in the state that had jurisdiction over the work we were doing applied to all work, regardless of whether or not the employee was paid or volunteer. Minors were excluded from proscribed dangerous activities and/or work areas with certain exceptions if their work/presence was part of an educational program. So my approach was to work with the student-volunteer through his or her school district under their STEM program. My recollection is that one of the many benefits of this was that it incorporated the protections from the nefarious types of activities being discussed already in place in the school district. These included rules and policies for supervision, background checks, and reporting of suspicious/aberrant behavior.


Good point. That's probably a different seminar topic but I'll throw it in the pile of ideas. States also have different laws regarding mandatory reporting if you even suspect abuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:01 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:34 pm
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I think it is no doubt important to bring in youth to our hobby or profession. But into todays world easier said than done. So this is a great topic. So far from what I gather it is all of our responsibility to protect the youth from danger and dangerous pedifiles and general sicko's. So far I see a lopsided attempt to stop problems should they become obvious and that is good. To a degree. Personal conduct amongst older members has in the past needed attention. Most of the problem adults have left but some remain. It may have nothing to do with sex or perversion but ones profession. A Union Iron Worker who is of retirement age may come on a little rough around the edges to office workers and youth a like. So who makes the judgment call on what exactly constitutes bad or sexual behavior? The pendulum often swings pretty wide and deep when trying to address any serious problem with rules that leave no leeway and potential for abuse by rule nazis.

I still hold my nurses licence and am going to let it go this summer. I have had enough of the BS in the workplace. It is often reversed discrimination where an older guy {me} works with younger CNAs and nurses. If one of the ladies is having a bad hair day, you showing up for work that day is enough reason to file a complaint that "you made them feel unforgettable", by law if it goes to email or verbal complaint to my boss, they by law have to investigate the allegations. Then they have to notify the state, who has a review board who decides if they {the state} needs to investigate and file charges which opens you up to civil suits. In the nursing field it is a well known fact "nurses eat their young". The stress of having your bosses or coworkers throw you under the bus is a constant reality. How many bad dramas have you all witnessed at your workplace, museum or club. When an overbearing member goes after another, or dept rivalry? A stacked BOD goes after the "red headed stepchild" of a board member. This is a good subject but in my opinion there needs to be consequences for wrongly accusing people of misdeeds. Rumor is not enough to pounce and accuse another person. The accused person is now a flat out enemy of you and your organization. Or potentially so. So two feuding parties try to get the other to quit. I have seen it already and many good people leave rather than play this dirty game of slander or hiding behind the pretence that they are "only following rules" that are in place to protect women and children or in the name of safety. Slight correction and it may vary from state to state. A complaint from staff to other staff member does not have to go to state. That will go to Corporate HQ. But a staff member complaint of a patient or public person not on the payroll does go to state for review. But the potential for inappropriate use of these protection rules often snag innocent people. It is all in the interpretation of what is "right or wrong" and the world is not a concrete place where there is not wiggle room for interpretation.

In the professions some of these rules and regs were conceived as protection against wrongdoers and intentions were good. But like "Crime Stoppers" it can be abused and innocent people get slammed for things they did not do or intend to do. And the "evil minded whistleblower" laughs at the power they have over others. I have a serious bone to pick with some of the "rules" people want to implement on their volunteer staff. Just about any kind of humor will be used or can be used against you because a "yout" was in hearing range. Yucking it up can and will be used against you. Announcing you "have to go pee, I"ll be right back" to the crew your working with might be considered inappropriate by some?

Just want to point out there is a down side to "protecting our youth". Telling a younger guy who left museum tools, paint cans un-resealed and his work area not picked up is going to be touchy. Some will honestly tell you that you should go easy on the kid. Your trying to teach the kid that good work habits are important to the museum and our collective goal. So now your investigated because Joe "everybody deserves a medal" thinks you overreacted and should of said nothing?

I was fortunate to have been involved at MC RR as a young kid, adults kept an eye on me and it was part of my education. Some older members swore like ex Navy, drank beer, told stories about bars and women. I felt it was part of my initiation into young adulthood. So guess I have an old guys perspective on reality. Seriously think that whistleblowers need to take responsibility and not have amnesty or protection for complaining about other people. If it goes further this way the new rules will be abused. I hope my points are received in their intended manner. But there does need to be checks and balances protecting your staff and volunteers as well as keeping an eye out for perps and sickos. Regards, John.


Last edited by John Risley on Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:16 pm 

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Location: Southern California
One thing just came to mind. Find out what your local State regulations are concerning youth using power tools, etc. There may be age related restrictions.

A few years ago I read about a railroad equipment restoration project in the United Kingdom that was being done primarily by a group of teenage members of the organization. If part of the project required the use of a power tool they had to get an adult to do it for them.

Orange Empire/Southern California Ry Museum once (couple of decades or more ago) was the site of some work projects for "at risk" teenagers. One thing was that would use racks and hand saws, etc., but not powered tools because of their age.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:00 pm 

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The U.S. Department of Labor has rather explicit rules about what people under age 18 can be employed to do, and those rules become even more stringent for younger age groups.

Summary posters for non-agricultural and agricultural work:

Their overall web site for youth employment also has some discussion of state laws in this area.

For safety, probably one should consider volunteers (especially youths) as employees with zero salary.


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