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 Post subject: Museum Youth Protection Policies - Moderation Complaints
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:36 pm
Posts: 95
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Last edited by Zach Lybrand on Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:19 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1477
But actual discussion will be deleted…. Got it ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:34 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:47 pm
Posts: 216
.. and from me. Tom, you want to seem like you want to discuss it without actually discussing it. Pitiful indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
You just proved my point.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:36 pm
Posts: 95
The fact of the matter is that this is indeed an important topic to discuss. However, the two previous threads and THREE replies to this thread (sorry boilermaker; I didn't see yours before it got nuked!) were all deleted with no communications as to why. How are we supposed to be aware of what rules or guidelines we violated without such communication? Or were they deleted for more misguided reasons?


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
tomgears wrote:
In two previous threads the majority of the posts were nothing more than attacks on various individuals and mentioning names. In this current remake nearly all of the posts are discussing the terrible moderator. Barely any conversation about protecting young people at all. I started this thread to demonstrate to a friend that exactly that would happen and you folks didn't let me down.


If you had deleted specific over-the-line posts with warnings as to why, instead of deleting entire threads, You might have had a point.

When it's starkly apparent that one moderator won't even allow the topic to be broached, then, yes--we're wasting our time trying to talk constructively about the issue. At least here.

And I remind you once again--and legal counsel will concur--you cannot be sued for libel or slander by the dead, or even their heirs.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:07 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1477
“ The value of the whole exceeds the need to be talk smack about the person and/or museum. “

The value of rail preservation exceeds the safety of minors who are volunteering / visiting railroad organizations!?!?

Reporting criminal issues = talking smack?

Is this real life!?


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:13 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2726
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
tomgears wrote:
In two previous threads the majority of the posts were nothing more than attacks on various individuals and mentioning names. In this current remake nearly all of the posts are discussing the terrible moderator. Barely any conversation about protecting young people at all. I started this thread to demonstrate to a friend that exactly that would happen and you folks didn't let me down.

Those of us who have been here a long time remember the time we surfed on over to find RYPN shut down under threat of lawsuit. This site has been a valuable resource over the years. Any day of the week I would delete a thread labeling John Doe from XYZ museum a pedophile and being critical of how the museum handled it. Especially when the person making the post includes the fact the named person was never charged/convicted. The value of the whole exceeds the need to be talk smack about the person and/or museum.

Thank you for your understanding.



1. Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act protects a board like RYPN from legal action. The section states "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider" (47 U.S.C. § 230). That means the prior (baseless) legal threats against RYPN (most made mainly by a current resident of FCI Englewood) are baseless. The only person under any potential legal threat for the claims made in today's post is me and others. Even then, everything I stated is factual, and truth is an absolute defense to any libel suit.

2. I take significant exception to your labeling of my prior post as having contained "personal attacks." I linked two articles, and stated other, true verifiable facts. In fact, the first article I linked was previously posted here on RYPN and discussed at great length. While uncomfortable, they aren't "personal attacks." Wikionary defines a personal attack as "An abusive remark on or relating to somebody's person instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments." For example, a personal attack by me would be (hypothetically, of course) calling a moderator a moron for not being able to delineate between actual facts and a personal attack.

3. I also take even more significant personal exception to your outright lie that my post contained personal attacks, since you deleted it, and the readers of RYPN cannot decide for themselves.

4. You created this mess by your actions, and your less-than-transparent approach to it all. What do you expect people to do, when you act in such a heavy handed manner? People are going to question why you did it, and the flimsy, legally and factually ignorant reasons you provided as justification for your action.

At the end of the day, it's the moderators forum, and they can be as irrational as they want to be. Just don't pretend to be transparent. In other words, don't piss on our boots and say it is raining.

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David M. Wilkins

"They love him, gentlemen, and they respect him, not only for himself, for his character, for his integrity and judgment and iron will, but they love him most of all for the enemies he has made."


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies - Moderation Complaints
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:02 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
Posts: 2576
Location: Faulkland, Delaware
I hear your comments and I apologize for any hurt feelings. I split the topic and ask that complaints and discussion about moderation be kept in this thread. Going forward I will alter my approach to moderation. I ask everyone to have a little grace.

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Tom Gears
Wilmington, DE

Maybe it won't work out. But maybe seeing if it does will be the best adventure ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:17 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:12 pm
Posts: 109
[quote="Chris Webster"] I support the moderator(s) decision to remove that first RYPN thread *** I support the moderator(s) decision to remove that second RYPN thread *** I fully support the moderator(s) decision to remove that third thread *** [/quote]

What difference should it make to anyone else whether you "support the moderator(s) decision" (x3) or not? Do you seriously think that others should alter their contrary perspectives just because Chris Webster has announced his endorsement of some particular thing?


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies - Moderation Complaints
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:23 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 2279
I preferred the board when the moderation was strict, i.e. back when Jeff Terry and steaminfo were still moderators. Discourse requires more than anyone being able to say whatever they want whenever they want, because such a free-for-all just allows the loudest voices to dominate, not necessarily the most knowledgeable. If inappropriate posts disappear regularly again it would be a good thing IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies - Moderation Complaints
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:18 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1899
Location: Youngstown, OH
PMC wrote:
Discourse requires more than anyone being able to say whatever they want whenever they want, because such a free-for-all just allows the loudest voices to dominate, not necessarily the most knowledgeable.


Who gets to make those decisions as to what posts are the "most knowledgeable"? Wouldn't that require moderators to be "all knowing and all seeing" in order to make those decisions consistently? Increasingly the world is being split up into two camps and each camp denies anything that the other believes in as "misinformation". Even quantifiable facts are being labeled if those facts are inconvenient to the other camp. In that kind of world, it is imperative that the moderators do not make value judgements according to the camp they are in but instead allow both camps to battle it out in the free market of ideas.

Section 230 provides protection to this forum, owners, admins and moderators ONLY if we act as a platform and not a publisher. If we are to continue down this path of judging what comments are worthy and what comments are not, we are stepping into the realm of publisher and thus risk losing Section 230 immunity. And since the moderators are not all knowing, we may erroneously delete valuable information that we do not know is valuable due to our own personal ignorance of the topic. The risks are too great to continue down this path of moderators acting as gatekeepers, deciding what is worthy and not worthy beyond the basic parameters of being directly or tangentially relevant to railway preservation and policing hateful or threatening comments.

I keep suggesting that members here use the features of this forum to help you craft your own unique visitor experience. If you don't want to see what certain members have to say you can use the friend and foe feature. If a certain topic thread is going in a direction that you do not wish to follow, simply DO NOT READ that topic. Yes you can make your own personal decisions! You don't have to complain about the topic, report it, post that "this is off topic" or anything. Just don't click on it, realizing that your wants and desires may not be the wants and desires of others and that you should not try to impose your views on others by denying their ability to communicate.

We have plenty of bandwidth space here. There is room for many simultaneous discussions on a myriad of different topics. Use your own personal agency and discretion to choose where you want to participate based on what you want to talk about. Unlike Facebook and Twitter which provides content in a continuous feed, this forum allows users to choose what they want to see by using the topics list.

Forums such as this can only survive and prosper when the members have enough respect for their fellow members to not try to dictate what others can say or cannot say. It used to work much better back when people had respect for the opinions of others, but in this social contagion of cancel culture, each feels that they now must try to silence anyone who they disagree with. That is wrong. The old motto of "I may disagree with what you have to say but I will defend to the death your ability to say it" has fallen out of favor but should make a resurgence at least here in this forum.

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From the desk of Rick Rowlands
inside Conrail caboose 21747


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies - Moderation Complaints
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:52 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2213
Forgive me if I don't see how this jibes with three ill-tempered threads being deleted rather than edited with warnings, mandatory moderation, and perhaps bans.

I wonder if something like Quora's BNBR might be reasonable to impose here: I think the problems are much more with the tone and motivation rather than the subject matter. Following the course of Mr. Rimmasch's affairs is imho an appropriate topic. Bringing it up to gloat is not... again, imho.

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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies - Moderation Complaints
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:28 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 710
Location: Wall, NJ
Perhaps its time some users actually read the Mission Statement, highlights of which include:

Focus: The INTERCHANGE is a moderated discussion board for exchanging relevant, fact-based, information about railroad history, the crafts of research and authorship, the operation of railroad museums, railroad history groups, tourist railroads, and other related organizations.

All kinds of inquiries are welcome here from "how do I change the oil in a diesel locomotive?" to "what can my organization do to build its membership?"

Railroad history and historic preservation offers a number of interesting challenges and great rewards, and our purpose here is to use the power of the Internet to open new channels of communication between railroad heritage organizations of all sizes from all across North America to help further "the cause."

The INTERCHANGE'S primary purpose is to facilitate the exchange of information, advice, and suggestions, not to serve as a forum for debate.

The INTERCHANGE requires all posters to adhere to a high standard of courtesy and civility. ......argument and debate for their own sake......are all prohibited.

Defining what constitutes uncourteous, uncivil, or unconstructive speech, and deciding when continued discussion of a subject is no longer constructive, shall be within the sole discretion of the moderators. They may choose to issue a back-channel warning, may delete posts without warning, or may close threads to new posts.

RyPN has the final say. RyPN reserves the right to limit and/or permanently revoke the posting capability of any user of the website.

Under no circumstances may a poster contest the moderators’ decision of a specific case using the INTERCHANGE, or otherwise attempt to “arouse the masses.” Such posts will constitute a violation of INTERCHANGE policy.

In short, this is NOT a forum for debate. Moderator decisions are final - period. Take it up off line if you disagree, not on the forum. Period.

In my mind, the way to save the best elements of RyPN is to remove some users. Its time.

J.R. May


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 Post subject: Re: Museum Youth Protection Policies - Moderation Complaints
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:36 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2213
Strange that mandatory moderation, which in my opinion is the logical first step for posters who don't 'take a hint' from moderators, is not mentioned.

Rather than allowing known irritating posts to be made before they "have" to be deleted, or to allow threads to run on in violation of the TOS, hold them for advance review, including notice that a post should be reframed more 'appropriately' to convey whatever preservation-appropriate material it contained.

Most of the TOS I see include a blanket prohibition on the kind of political 'discussion' that causes debate rather than discussion.

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R.M.Ellsworth


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