[quote="Rick Rowlands"] The big issues that us "deniers" (we aren't actually denying anything, we are practicing science by asking questions and posing alternative theories are concerned with is the veracity of the temperature data which we know has been altered, the fact that the majority of computer models are all overestimating warming and disregarding any other explanations for change in weather that does not include climate change. *** So if you want to bring people over to your side, first step is to remove "climate denier" from your vocabulary and treat us with some respect. [/quote]

Out of genuine curiosity, what are your specific scientific credentials for practicing in this particular field? Do you hold a subject-specific PhD from a recognized university? Alternatively, has your experience in the practice of science been in the form of research assistance, repetitively carrying out controlled experimentation? In other words, what is the basis for the opinions that you express on this subject, for which you expect to be respected, other than perhaps reading what others may have written?

"We are practicing science" reminds me of a former acquaintance, an intelligent middle-aged man who was highly-accomplished in his own nonscientific profession, who (as he put it) "did his own research" and thereupon decided not to receive any Covid vaccinations. He then caught Covid, which developed into a severe case that landed him in the hospital, where he died. I'm not a scientist, so I have no basis to draw any particular cause-effect conclusion from these facts, let alone to "pose alternative theories." My point, however, is that he was not a scientist either.

The problem with your response is that even among those who do have such bona fides who question the "just accept and don't question" parroting are equally being dismissed.
Such conversations among actual scientists are not allowed. DR Cliff Mass at the University of Washington is a quote vocal advocate against the current 'sky is falling' mindset rampant in the media these days.

Jack,

If we turn the tables around I could also ask what your bonafides are and then discount everything that you have to say based on your lack of credentials. Heck going by your standards nobody in this entire thread should have said one word at all as none of us are properly qualified. Extrapolating this further, nobody on this forum who is not an ASME code stamp holder should say one word about boilers, nobody who does not hold an air brake certificate should touch the subject of air brakes and nobody who doesn't hold a history degree should even mention any historical fact. See how ridiculous your "standard" is if carried out to the logical conclusion.

But we all know that what you attempted here is to just silence opinions using the "appeal to authority" trope. The reality is that we do not have to be PhDs or credentialed to read and understand scientific research. Just as you are capable of reading and understanding news articles and papers promoting the AGW theories, I can do the same with papers promoting competing theories.

Average people with rational brains are fully capable of understanding scientific research. We can listen to the opinions and conclusions drawn by those who are properly qualified and then make our own judgements.

One thing that scientists do not do is apply their findings to the real world. They may say that the planet is warming, but they do not say what should be done with that information. The one thing that is lacking are real discussions (without resorting to name calling or tropes) about what should be done about it. Those decisions cannot be made by scientists but must be made by the people who are affected. US! Is it better to try to eliminate all carbon usage and accept the civilization destroying effects of doing that, or is it better to adapt to the changes. Will going to net zero cause more harm than continuing to use carbon? If you think about what net zero really means then you might see that it may cause more long term damage than adaptation would. That is a tremendous change to our entire civilization so isn't that worthy of at least the same amount of discussion as lets say, the correct shade of Pullman green to use on a coach?

I want all of you to understand that net zero will eventually result in the dropping of fires permanently in every operating steam locomotive. Whether it be from the societal rejection of the open burning of any fossil fuel, the extremely high cost of such fuel or the complete absence of it (see what happened in the UK), we are on a trajectory toward a steamless future. Certainly I am not the only one who can see more than five feet in front of my face.

[quote="p51"] The problem with your response is that even among those who do have such bona fides who question the "just accept and don't question" parroting are equally being dismissed. Such conversations among actual scientists are not allowed. DR Cliff Mass at the University of Washington is a quote vocal advocate against the current 'sky is falling' mindset rampant in the media these days.[/quote]

Respectfully, that's not a problem with my response to Mr. Rowlands concerning his professed "practice of science" and the extent of his own scientific bona fides (if any). Whether or not it is true that "such conversations among actual scientists are not allowed" may be indicative of a problem within the scientific community, but has nothing to with the pretensions of any non-scientist.

Incidentally, per Wikipedia (for whatever that's worth), "On his personal blog on August 5, 2020, [Dr. Cliff] Mass likened to Kristallnacht the extensive violence, rioting, and property damage in downtown Seattle, calling photos of the damage "eerily similar to those of 80 years ago." The context for this remark was the mid-July events of the George Floyd protests in Seattle. He subsequently defended the comparison in the comments to that entry. The next day, KNKX announced that it would stop airing Weather with Cliff Mass, effective immediately, citing "offensive and inaccurate" rhetoric in that personal blog post. Mass temporarily removed the words "Kristallnacht" and "Brownshirts" from his post, describing the passage that contained them as "a source of distraction to some," before restoring them." Perhaps other "actual scientists" simply find Dr. Mass offensive?

On the nose!

Instead of being moderated out of existance like it should have been after the first post, this abomination of a thread is now up to page 11 with only the most ephemeral thread connecting it to railway preservation.

These threads only serve to make me question why I visit this board anymore. That's not entirely true, they also inspire me to take the time to go back and delete my previous posts, so there will be less of a record that I was ever a participant here. 10 pages down, 135 to go!

Unfortunately that was predictable. The Strasburg posts are by far the best ones on RYPN and one of the main reasons I still read this board (even though the SRR posts aren't as frequent as before). Within the next 5 years this board will just be another echo chamber of old men complaining about liberals and how they ruined RYPN/America/everything but with a front of just barely enough preservation discussion so they can and say "see, we're really do talk trains".

Amen! Preach it! Unfortunately, when it comes to moderators, it appears that some pigs are more equal than others. Furio Giunta would likely consider this thread in much the same way that he views golf, "STUPIDA FOCKIN' GAME!!!"

Some rather noble, imperious, and condescending opinions are shown in the last few posts. It amusing to see people bitch and bemoan others' opinions whilst slathering out their own opinions.

Back to reality then:

RISING FUEL COSTS WILL EFFECT YOUR RAILWAY MUSEUM AND TOURIST ATTENDANCE. GREEN/LEFT IDEOLOGY THAT WISHES TO END CARBON USE WILL EFFECT YOUR FUTURE OPERATIONS.

The fact is, most people believe in human caused global warming (AGW). Or they are simply tired of hearing the arguments and are resigned to the fact that fossil fuels are going to be scarce and expensive. The left has done an excellent job of demonizing any alternative theories and shutting down debate. The only hope is that our right leaning representatives won't deny global warming (in order to maintain credibility), but will push to slow the transition down. There are good common sense economic arguments for slowing the transition down, that won't be labelled as denying AGW. The left's methods are to label scaptics as deniers and make fossil fuels scarce and expensive, so people will go along with the accelerated transition. The only hope for the tourist railroads and the economy in general, is to slow the pace of the transition down, and emphasize the need for all-of-the-above, until fossil fuels can be replaced economically.

Here's something that all those that preach that electric vehicles and wind and solar power are going to save the world. These are real world numbers that come from the production of a electric vehicle and then just one of the current crop of larger windmills used for power generation.

To make the battery pack alone for a Tesla requires the mining of 60k tons of various ores including lithium cobalt and other rare earth minerals. The battery case itself uses more petroleum than 2 years of gasoline for the average car. The amount of wiring required itself requires 5k tons of virgin copper ores to be extracted and refined into new copper.


For the windmill itself it's 400 tons of iron refined into steel for the tower rear for the foundation and hardware. Over 3 miles of heavyweight copper wiring 600 gallons of oil for lubricant 25 tons of fiberglass and thousands of gallons of diesel fuel to setup. Plus acres of land removed from crop production and then the birds killed by them. This for something that if the wind is to fast will tear itself apart.

I'd appreciate it if this thread, going forward, could be restrained to be on the correct topic Mr. Cook brought up. In fact, I'd like to see all the off-topic posts, including rants on the underlying reasons for fuel price increases (and, prospectively, supply shortages) removed as inappropriate for this board.

I'm interested, though, in learning Jack Powell's credentials to take the specific line of criticism he did before the thread is mercifully locked or deleted, as I do in fact have a relevant degree.

I was thinking about asking the same thing. RYPN is not a place to be making blind challenges of peoples qualifications. Among the participants on this site that I know personally there are many who worked for the railroads, multiple individuals who have worked for the equipment and engine builders, at least two who have been service managers for locomotive builders, and at least one who has been an advisor to DOD and DOE on alternate fuel studies.

PC

Aren't you glad you started this thread?

Actually, yes, because the original posting asks about planning and preparation for a situation that could potentially have a major impact on the preservation hobby/industry.

The subsequent drift is unfortunate but probably unavoidable on a public forum.

PC

Panasonic just broke ground on a 4 billion dollar 3,000,000 sq ft battery plant five minutes east of where I live, and it has already caused property values to skyrocket, and created a housing shortage in the Lawrence, Eudora, Desoto, Gardner, etc, and KC. Raw materials will come in by rail and then truck, creating more traffic and road maintenance. I'd imagine finished products will go south on I-35 to the plant in Texas, and or to BNSF logistics park about 7 or 8 miles to the south. Taxes are already getting so high, it's like youre just renting from the county, so I guess that can be looked at as both good and bad. I don't like it now, but might like if decide to move.
Battery vehicles are here to stay I'm afraid, everything from toys, to electric wheel chairs, drones, cell phones, cars, trucks, locomotives, and probably airplanes too. Nothing we can do about it, just try and enjoy the ride I guess. And by the way, diesel & gas have been coming down in my area for the last month, so if there's a shortage in this area, we aint seeing it yet. Gas around $3.00 diesel $4.26 today.