It is currently Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:42 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1309
Frisco1522 wrote:
Every time I hear about people moving from one place to another and then try to make the new place as screwed up as the old place, it makes my blood boil.
The RR was there a LONG time before you showed up. Shoulda moved elsewhere.


No, people are allowed to have concerns and voice those concerns.

I’d complain about more diesel horns too.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3816
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Bobharbison wrote:
J3a-614 wrote:
I would like to know how, at least for the steam engines, the same whistles, on the same engines, operating at the same boiler pressure, can be louder than before. As far as I know, it's not like someone changed any of those things.

Now, if they are making noises about the diesels, that might be kind of understandable. Part of that is that the diesels are new to Durango and aren't familiar. A big part would also be that diesel horns just don't sound the same. As a steam fan, they don't sound anywhere near as pleasant as steam.


I agree, it's the diesels. The loco residents don't know, or care, which is which. But the noise isn't as pleasant as it was, and it's louder. So they're whining.


Thanks for tickling some brain cells!

Some years ago, before the EBT shut down, a person there--I think he was from the Friends of the East Broad Top--commented that people would sometimes complain about the whistles from the steam engines. He said the complaints stopped when the road started using its diesels on some trains. I couldn't tell you what sort of horn was used on the center cab unit that was taking the place of a second steam engine, but as usual, it wasn't anywhere near as melodious as anything on a boiler at Orbisonia.

The one exception I would comment on with the EBT is the whistle on 17--it's a screecher of some sort, and isn't the best example I'd pick for a steam whistle.

There are some people who don't like the hooters on N&W freight power, and Reading freight whistles are nothing to praise from this crowd, but 17's is not pleasant at all.

(A caveat--I would say N&W and Reading freight whistles are an acquired taste--and I've acquired the taste for both.)


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2763
Location: Northern Illinois
Bobharbison wrote:
I agree, it's the diesels. The loco residents don't know, or care, which is which. But the noise isn't as pleasant as it was, and it's louder. So they're whining.


Maybe the D&S should fit the new diseasels with Hancock air whistles.

_________________
Dennis Storzek


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3816
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Another thought--could D&S consider borrowing a page from the New Haven and pick up some Hancock air whistles for the diesels? Those sound mellow, almost like steam.

Hmmm--and New Haven's early road switcher scheme--in orange and green, which seems to have been the inspiration for what's on at least one locomotive on the Batten Kill Railroad--wouldn't look bad in Colorado, either.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1471
Location: New Franklin, OH
Dennis Storzek wrote:
Bobharbison wrote:
I agree, it's the diesels. The loco residents don't know, or care, which is which. But the noise isn't as pleasant as it was, and it's louder. So they're whining.


Maybe the D&S should fit the new diseasels with Hancock air whistles.

We used our Hancock all summer. It wasn’t anywhere near as annoying as any kind of air horn. Our neighbors probably appreciated it. Word of caution - use tamper-proof fasteners or you may not have a Hancock for long.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
Car Knocker, Gandy Dancer & Hog Jockey


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:06 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:15 pm
Posts: 1453
Location: Henderson Nevada
Some years ago, as California’s High Speed Rail was first proposed, Caltrain (Former SP Commute service between San Francisco and San Jose, possibly where some of Durango’s new residents came from) received a number of complaints about horn noise (along with other complaints as only Nimby* and Cave* people can complain)… and as a result shop forces tried lowering the air preasure used by the horns… complaints continued… and those complaining upped their game and complained to the FRA, who came, investigated and determined the horns were, per FRA rules not loud enough, and ordered Caltrain restore the full air pressure to the horns, and of course, make them louder…

I would also note that at the time Caltrain was trying to grade separate as many grade crossings as possible, (which would eliminate the need for sounding a warning at a grade crossing) but of course the same communities complained about that too…

Randy

*Nimby = Not In My Backyard, CAVE = Citizens against Virtually Everything

_________________
Randy Hees
Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City, Nevada, Retired
http://www.nevadasouthern.com/
https://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfNevadaSouthernRailway


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1996
Location: Southern California
The talk about whistles and load and soft of the sound has encouraged me share this observation:

I am a long-time member volunteer at Southern California Ry Museum - going back to the Orange Empire Trolley Museum days. My activity has retrenched, but I still work the front entrance area during the "Day out with Thomas" event.

We have a railroad/pedestrian crossing adjacent to the public entrance which is crossed by the "Thomas" train as it starts and ends its runs. The crossing has swing fence gates that are manually opened and closed during the event. The trains also blow for the crossing.

The screecher air whistle on Thomas when the train leaves the nearby boarding area is very annoying to particularly the young children waiting with their parents to enter the event.

How the horn on the diesel when the returning train approaches the crossing can be different -- and that depends on who the engineer is. One long-time member is a very easy hand that announces the train with a soft, but efficient, sound.

Others "lay on the horn" as if they are running the Super Chief at high speed. This is very annoying to all of the patrons and the entrance staff in the surrounding area -- OMG you really know the train is coming and you wonder if your drums are still intact.

_________________
Brian Norden


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:27 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 1171
About 20 years ago now, I installed a Hancock air whistle on a locomotive. It was very nice. A conversation with an FRA man indicated that the FRA, at least at that time, felt the Hancock wasn't loud enough to provide adequate warning to motorists.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 2460
Location: Thomaston & White Plains
Hancock Air Whistles, properly installed and in good condition, will fall within the acceptable DB range for FRA testing protocols. This would be the Model 4700, with the "dish" reflector.

The biggest problem with them is they are magnets for the loathsome maggots who steal other people's noisemakers.

Howard P.

_________________
"I'm a railroad man, not a prophet."


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:48 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1471
Location: New Franklin, OH
Ours is a 4700. It’s plenty loud enough out in front with the valve pulled wide open but it doesn’t liquify your brain like some air horns can. And, it is easier to modulate.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
Car Knocker, Gandy Dancer & Hog Jockey


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:02 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
Posts: 538
I would imagine few heritage organizations are doing the actual FRA DB testing when it comes to horns & whistles..

_________________
https://vintagedieseldesign.com/


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:52 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1471
Location: New Franklin, OH
I doubt many orgs have a legit, calibrated dB meter. We don’t. We also don’t cross any roads except for a rarely used short stub of track. I’d guess and say our Hancock is loud enough if measured per spec, it just doesn’t have the same focused projection as a horn. The sound via the reflector has a lot more “scatter” to it so at a fair distance it may be not as loud. We can hear it easily at 3/4 of a mile, though.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
Car Knocker, Gandy Dancer & Hog Jockey


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:04 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:30 pm
Posts: 64
The Middletown & New Jersey had Hancock 4700 whistles mounted on their 44 tonner #2 while I worked there. It was plumbed using the original air line (IIRC, 3/8" copper line) for the horn it replaced. I didn't think it wasn't as loud as the single bell original horn. I've always wondered if the Hancock would have been a little louder if the size of the air line was increased. The #2 had a horn for each end with a diverter valve. I convinced the Boss to put a horn on one end and I think the horn made more "noise" even though the engine was traveling in the opposite direction. Our yard was near a residential area, so the folks didn't mind the softer sounding Hancock, but if I needed to grab some attention in a hurry, I liked to use the horn the GE came with.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:19 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1034
Location: B'more Maryland
J3a-614 wrote:
Another thought--could D&S consider borrowing a page from the New Haven and pick up some Hancock air whistles for the diesels? Those sound mellow, almost like steam.

Hmmm--and New Haven's early road switcher scheme--in orange and green, which seems to have been the inspiration for what's on at least one locomotive on the Batten Kill Railroad--wouldn't look bad in Colorado, either.


It'd be a fair trade for the Rio Grande dazzle camouflage on the PNRR SD.

_________________
If you fear the future you won't have one.
The past was the worst.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: First Smoke, Now Complaints About Whistles in Durango.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:47 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3816
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Metal whistles can and do abrade in the steam and/or get out of adjustment over time; ditto air horns. It is possible to adjust a whistle to a different pressure or re-cut the languid plate to change the sound or performance.

I once witnessed the recalibration (for want of a better word for it) on a PRR passenger whistle that was being used at a shop/factory very near the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona, right around the official grand opening of the Museum. It went from a weak, anemic too to a full-throated howl in just a couple hours.

Similarly, I saw a readjustment of my home town's fire department air horn, a three-chime Westinghouse used in lieu of the usual siren. It went from a weakened honk that could be heard well a half-mile away to a deafening blast that could be heard over two miles away--on the same pressure.

Steam and diesel CAN be made to sound alike. The late Bill Howes had a custom steam whistle made for the Chessie Steam Special (later used on 614/Safety Express) matching the sound and chord of the then-new Nathan K5LA air horn. When the EMDs with the K5LAs had variable-pressure whistle valves and the right engineer was on the handle, it was said the two were indistinguishable at any distance.


I can't comment on Mr. Mitchell's thoughts about how whistles and horns can be affected by wear (and thus volume changes when corrections are made.)

However, as good as KL5A air horns are supposed to sound, I can say from personal experience that they still do NOT sound like their steam counterpart!

I recall being in Harpers Ferry on a business trip, in a shop on the hill above the station there. Trains were common, but on this cold winter day I heard something different as a train was blowing for the crossing just to the west of the town.

I commented to the owner, who was familiar with trains as well, "That horn sounds a lot better than most." The second blast was a both beautiful and a revelation--"That's a STEAM engine!"

We ran outside to catch the 614 being ferried south to Florida for winter trips that season. In a way the sound at that point (past the crossing, now what we were hearing was the engine itself) was unimpressive, but then she was running at almost no load, having dropped down the hill from Bardane to the west. I've since learned to appreciate such quiet running, especially under load; what that means is the engine is running so easily, it's making almost no effort, even at the point of a passenger train at 70 mph--saying much about how much power such a machine still has in reserve, in this case UP 844!

Getting back to the whistle, it was still just so distinctive. . .not like a diesel horn at all!! Somehow more strident, MUCH richer in tone, and absent what I can only describe as a "tinny" element in horns in general.

Anyway, that's something I've noticed in steam, then and at other times!

Brain cells being tickled here--one fellow, describing steam engines and whistles, said that they "weren't ear piercing, but more like ear overpowering." I'm not sure that would make them endearing to people who think they make too much noise anyway, but it is, in my opinion, a good description of the experience around steam. Around those machines, it seems as if the air itself becomes alive as the sound is so immersive, as are so many other aspects of the steam experience.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], NS 3322, Rainier Rails, Russ Fischer and 82 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: