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 Post subject: Re: Emma Nevada Frame Repair
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:06 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:47 pm
Posts: 169
wilkinsd wrote:
Even if it were after applied reinforcement, on top of a repair of the crack itself, the quality of the welds on those plates would make me question the quality of the full-pen weld on the frame.


As a welder, I can say it does say a lot about another welder when they don't take the time to remove the slag and clean their welds before calling a weld or repair "done".

Proper testing to identify the base material and therefore select the proper welding procedure and electrode are also wise, considering the age and inconsistency of steel and castings of the era.


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 Post subject: Re: Emma Nevada Frame Repair
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:47 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1788
I'm withholding any comment... until I see some pictures of the original crack and the testing that revealed its actual extent.

That plate welding is execrable. Perhaps the shop was too cheap to rig the frame so it could be downhand welded. That would bode ill indeed...

Should be simple to do a metallurgical and chemical analysis on the frame to determine what it is, and what the proper techniques should involve.

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 Post subject: Re: Emma Nevada Frame Repair
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:32 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:47 pm
Posts: 169
From said Facebook page, a post by Mike Wissler

Quote:
Sometimes social media posts don't convey proper
context or information. Sometimes a picture is not worth a
thousand words. The frame on the Emma Nevada was cracked through a bolt hole. The Nevada Central only surface-welded the crack. There was even rust and dirt under the weld. We v-notched out the crack on both sides up to the depth of the bolt and full-penetration welded one side at a time. The reason we welded on the plates is because of the bolt hole, it being a weak spot in the frame. Most of the welding was done during the week and no one took pictures. Admittedly, the weld bead on the plates looks rough, and we may revisit those welds. If the experienced people examining the site do not think the cracked area needs the extra reinforcement, we can certainly remove them. The next step will be to finish cleaning the steam chest/cylinder casting and lower frame rail extensions and transport this to a vendor that specializes in large cast brazing. This is expected to take place towards middle of October. In the meantime, we will be installing the reinforcing plate at the bottom of the smoke box and cylinder casting interface. Then we will be able to start reinstalling the drive wheels.


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 Post subject: Re: Emma Nevada Frame Repair
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1996
Location: Southern California
Boilermaker wrote:
From said Facebook page, a post by Mike Wissler

I do believe that Mike Wissler is the project lead.

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 Post subject: Re: Emma Nevada Frame Repair
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:38 pm
Posts: 14
Boilermaker wrote:
From said Facebook page, a post by Mike Wissler

Quote:
Sometimes social media posts don't convey proper
context or information. Sometimes a picture is not worth a
thousand words. The frame on the Emma Nevada was cracked through a bolt hole. The Nevada Central only surface-welded the crack. There was even rust and dirt under the weld. We v-notched out the crack on both sides up to the depth of the bolt and full-penetration welded one side at a time. The reason we welded on the plates is because of the bolt hole, it being a weak spot in the frame. Most of the welding was done during the week and no one took pictures. Admittedly, the weld bead on the plates looks rough, and we may revisit those welds. If the experienced people examining the site do not think the cracked area needs the extra reinforcement, we can certainly remove them. The next step will be to finish cleaning the steam chest/cylinder casting and lower frame rail extensions and transport this to a vendor that specializes in large cast brazing. This is expected to take place towards middle of October. In the meantime, we will be installing the reinforcing plate at the bottom of the smoke box and cylinder casting interface. Then we will be able to start reinstalling the drive wheels.


I would remove the plates. Not because no reinforcement is needed, but because I would be embarrassed to have that there. Those welds can't contribute much. The plates aren't even symmetrical . That is not a "bolt hole". That is a stud with a nut on it. As others have mentioned, that is certainly a Bessemer steel and you should get phosphorus and sulfur levels. Lincoln Electric would likely have a procedure already developed for the material.


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 Post subject: Re: Emma Nevada Frame Repair
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:11 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2278
Location: Strasburg, PA
tdmidget wrote:
I would remove the plates. Not because no reinforcement is needed, but because I would be embarrassed to have that there. Those welds can't contribute much. The plates aren't even symmetrical. As others have mentioned, ... you should get phosphorus and sulfur levels.
Given Emma's age, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the frame is made of wrought iron. Regardless, no important welding should be done without sending a sample of the metal to be welded to be chemically tested. When cutting out a sample, take it right from the spot that is to be welded. If more than one crack is to be welded on the frame, take a sample from each spot to be repaired. On a single cast steel frame rail, the steel chemistry can change radically from one part of the casting to another. Only after chemical testing is complete, can a welding procedure be decided on, then the frame welded.

When a full penetration weld is done to the proper procedure, the frame is nominally back to full strength, so scab plates shouldn't be required, or even wanted, they block future inspection of the weld repair for future cracking.

In cases where no full penetration weld repair is done, scab plates can make a proper repair, but only if chemical testing and proper weld procedure is decided on as before. Also, the scab plates and their welds need to be designed to transmit the full strength of the frame across the crack. One final detail, never weld across the ends of the scab plates, attach them to the frame with longitudinal welds along the length of the plate only. Welds across the ends of the scab plates introduce new stress risers and heat affected zones that can turn into new cracks down the road.


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