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 Post subject: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk.....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/business/n ... ns-9153724

Quote:
North Norfolk Railway has had to remove its steam trains from service due to fears they will be unsafe during the heatwave.

Martin Dupee, chairman of Norfolk and Suffolk Tourist Attractions (NSTA), said that the engines have been swapped for diesel-hauled versions "both to reduce the risk of fires and to avoid, extremely importantly, their volunteer locomotive crew working in excessively hot conditions on the footplate of a steam engine".

Other popular outdoor tourist venues across Norfolk have also had to make adaptions to cope with the record-breaking temperatures.

Mr Dupee said: "Many attractions, as a result of lower anticipated visitor numbers, have made changes to their offering, for the benefit and comfort of those who do visit and the staff still working in extreme working conditions.


More at the link.

If you haven't heard, parts of Britain (well, specifically the "heat island" of Heathrow Airport) hit 40 degrees C (104 degrees Fahrenheit) for the first time since temperature records were kept. Wildfires have hit parts of eastern England (like the Norfolk area) and have spread to houses, as we have become accustomed to having happening in wealthy California hillside communities.


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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:56 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
Posts: 640
Location: Ipswich, UK
Several preserved lines started switching to diesel traction last week to avoid any potential fire risk and some cancelled their operations completely on Mon/Tue this week which was when the peak temperatures were expected. Where I am "only" got to 95 F, helped by the fact that the North Sea isn't that far away (10 miles).
Network Rail introduced a Nationwide steam ban on their lines after Saturday when a 4-6-2 on a special in NW England started some lineside fires. We have had reduced services and line closures on the "normal" rail network due to the heat over the past few days as well.
Looking at the forecast, no significant rain is predicted over the next couple of weeks and everywhere is tinder dry, so I can't see steam returning aywhere for some time as yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:49 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:16 pm
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News reports I watched said it's normally 70° this time of year in London, and for the first time in centuries of record keeping that they've ever recorded a temperature over 100°. But, yeah, climate change~ it's a hoax, lol!

Locally, our summers go from flooding to drought in about a month. I'm in southeastern Kansas and this is a picture of the time and temperature display at one of our banks yesterday. Local authorities have instituted a county-wide burn ban, which will probably never expire.


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Last edited by Bad Order on Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:01 am, edited 4 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:55 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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Bad Order wrote:
News reports I watched said it's normally 70° this time of year, and first time in centuries of record keeping that it's ever got over 100°. But, yeah, climate change~ it's a hoax, lol!


I remember not so long ago when those who would cite weather (blizzards, heavy snows, cold temps.) as examples of the absence of global warming would be heavily chastised because "weather and climate are not the same thing". In the interests of maintaining a single standard I will have to chastise you for your comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:04 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
Posts: 640
Location: Ipswich, UK
Bad Order wrote:
News reports I watched said it's normally 70° this time of year in London, and for the first time in centuries of record keeping that they've ever recorded a temperature over 100°. But, yeah, climate change~ it's a hoax, lol!


You are generally looking at a 70F-80F figures in this part of the world (70 miles NE of London) for the summer, though it has crept up to the mid/high 80's on odd occasions over the years, but they tended to be the exception rather than the norm.
It's not just the temperatures that are a problem, it's the lack of rainfall. When I studied geography at school some 45 years ago, the average annual rainfall for Ipswich was running at 24 inches of rain. Looking at the stats for a local online weather station just now we appear to have had 5.3" of rain so far this year according to his readings, which explains why my garden is looking somewhat parched......

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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:36 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Rick Rowlands wrote:
Bad Order wrote:
News reports I watched said it's normally 70° this time of year, and first time in centuries of record keeping that it's ever got over 100°. But, yeah, climate change~ it's a hoax, lol!


I remember not so long ago when those who would cite weather (blizzards, heavy snows, cold temps.) as examples of the absence of global warming would be heavily chastised because "weather and climate are not the same thing". In the interests of maintaining a single standard I will have to chastise you for your comment.


I remember traveling through Scotland riding behind and chasing steam and BR in early September 1991, with a "record-setting heat wave" of 25-30+ degrees Celsius (80-85F). Sheep were coming up to me begging to be sheared. I saw a Border collie chasing a cat and they were both walking. But having just come from tropical-humidity Northeastern US in August, I was in my element as my travel companions begged for mercy. In 22 days of travel, I had maybe a half-day of that legendary UK "soft weather."

Funny how no one seems to remember that now......


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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:53 pm 
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Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
I was in London and Paris in May of 2018 and it was well into the 80s then for both cities. That was bad enough (as we only went into one place that had AC that I recall in all of the UK/EU), and I really feel for the poor residents there having to do with temps that would make someone from Florida think twice about going out!
Rick Rowlands wrote:
Bad Order wrote:
News reports I watched said it's normally 70° this time of year, and first time in centuries of record keeping that it's ever got over 100°. But, yeah, climate change~ it's a hoax, lol!
I remember not so long ago when those who would cite weather (blizzards, heavy snows, cold temps.) as examples of the absence of global warming would be heavily chastised because "weather and climate are not the same thing". In the interests of maintaining a single standard I will have to chastise you for your comment.

Remember in the 70s, the same folks said we'd have a new ice age within the lifetime of those who were kids at that point?
Look, I don't wanna get into this too much, but the bottom line is a few climatologists are saying that we're clearly elevating the temps but nowhere near what some say we are. And if they're being told outright that "We know climate change isn't as bad as we're saying, but people will never change unless they're scared," as Cliff Mass from the University of WA is saying, it becomes a serious question if the scientific method is being used at all and instead these folks are doing the all-too-common, "I'm starting with the final result then working back to find anything to support this" method, it does beg the question. That, and it's a fact that climates do ebb and flow over time.
I strongly believe in science, wore masks and got the shots for COVID, and while I accept it's clear we're doing something to the climate, it's now becoming clear from scientists that the idea that any blip in the weather must be directly related to climate change is awfully silly.
And seeing that most people on this forum understand long-term history, that silliness should be clear to everyone here.

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Last edited by p51 on Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:01 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
Posts: 594
Lee your post has too much logic and reasoning to be on a web forum, let alone this one.

Weather events, even for an entire summer, do not indicate anything with a climate. Climate takes generations to measure: one or even a small period of weather events does not indicate the climate of a region.

I know there are some events that are supposed to occur in the UK, like the terrier 150 event at Bluebell. I wonder if they will be affected.


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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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Location: Youngstown, OH
I think every one of us who operates steam locomotives has a vested interest in presenting the real facts about what we know about climate change, heavily focusing on the reality that we really don't know what will happen in the future, and that any pronouncements about the future of the planet are guesses at best. If we do not stick up for climate realism, we may find that some day the act of firing a steam locomotive with coal may become illegal.

Are any of you aware how close we are to that happening? All it takes is one intern in DC to add a paragraph to a "must pass" piece of legislation that erases the historical exemption and we are all out of business. We do not have any clout on the national level to combat that. And for those of you who say that it would never happen, think again. Last year here in Ohio we lost the Historical Boiler Licensing Board because some intern inserted a paragraph into a bill that dissolved the board. Now the board didn't cost the state anything to run and filled a purpose for licensing historical boiler operators, but because someone got a stick up their butt and was in the right place in govt., that person was able to wipe it out. Because it was a "must pass" piece of legislation, it passed and we had to go through the process of getting another legislator to add a paragraph to another bill to reinstate it. We like to think that we live in a representative republic that is responsive to the people, but that is a fiction. People who do not even know that we exist would destroy our lives work and not think twice about it. We are as expendable as a Keystone pipeline welder to them.

So If we do not start sticking up for ourselves, nobody else will and nobody will care when we are put out of business by government fiat.

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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:17 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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I was here in Portland OR for the 113F stretch last summer and thought that was almost un-survivable for more than a few minutes, can't imagine what 150F is like, that's close to the temperature for coffee cake in the oven lol: https://www.rtands.com/track-maintenanc ... slow-down/


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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11481
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
p51 wrote:
Remember in the 70s, the same folks said we'd have a new ice age within the lifetime of those who were kids at that point?


In all fairness and honesty, it was not "the same folks." There was a subset predicting a "new ice age," but they were a distinct minority, with ONE best-selling book by Lowell Ponte that got the public attention in the same era as all the UFO and Bermuda Triangle books:

https://www.amazon.com/Cooling-Has-Next ... 013172312X

I'll let discussion of that book's effect on the current debate go on elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:32 pm 
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Rick Rowlands wrote:
If we do not stick up for climate realism, we may find that some day the act of firing a steam locomotive with coal may become illegal.
Are any of you aware how close we are to that happening? All it takes is one intern in DC to add a paragraph to a "must pass" piece of legislation that erases the historical exemption and we are all out of business.
History has taught us that it only takes that one stroke of a pen to set up a brick wall that'll never be broken down (look at the National Firearms Act, a knee-jerk reaction to the thrill killers and spree bank robbers in the Midwest during the depression, even though many of them stole weapons from National Guard Armories and not from gun stores). That was in 1934, for events that never repeated, and there's never been any question on repealing that since then. It's a brick wall.
My point? Don't think for a moment that such a knee-jerk reaction can affect something you care about!

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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:30 am 

Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:32 pm
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Location: Altadena, CA
Just to make sure I understand, to be a good railroad preservationist, I need to help sow doubt about climate change because a low level bureaucrat might sneak a paragraph into a law that would outlaw steam engines like they did….machine guns?

Okay, got it, I think.

Wow, this rail preservation thing is so much more complicated than I thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:47 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
KevinKuzma wrote:
Wow, this rail preservation thing is so much more complicated than I thought.

Never underestimate the reactionary zeal of politicians desperate to make themselves seemingly relevant by being prominently seen to be "doing something" about a perceived crisis, no matter how (in)effective or short-sighted the enacted "solution" may be.......

"You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before." - Rahm Emanuel, high advisor to former U.S. president Barack Obama


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 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:18 am 

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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
If these weather and rain conditions continue for the next few years, you won't need to worry about fire bans and steam locomotives, because there will not be any trees or scenic views to motivate the train ride.

It's great to debate the science, but the "conservative" approach would be to have a plan B in case the really undesirable prediction becomes reality. Arguing that there is a 50% chance you are correct and therefore there is nothing to worry about, is not a bet I would take.

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