It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:36 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:36 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 250
If Climate Change isn't real, why did the fossil fuel industry follow the lead of the asbestos and nicotine industry's delay linger and wait legal and public relations strategy?

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62225696

Perhaps you have read and denied the fossil fuel industry's own internal predictions from a few decades ago as to how CO2 emissions would change the planet? They were remarkably spot on.

I'm further saddened to see how the Climate Scientist's predictions turned out to be wrong - not because they were over-predicting gloom and doom - but because they didn't predict how fast and how hard the effects would manifest themselves. Face it - would you have predicted the drying out of Lake Mead and Lake Powell this quickly? Sure forest fires are part of living in the west, but seriously what is it going to take for you to admit that "we're not in Kansas anymore?" Do you remember Alistair MacLean's 1963 potboiler Ice Station Zebra? The whole story makes no sense now with so much of the Arctic being ice free.

I can share similar stories of how the "Weather" is remarkably different from just a few decades ago where I live now. For one thing it used to be every winter that the low temperatures in the winter included a couple weeks below 0 F - our neighbor had a story of him experiencing -30 F - long enough that some homeowners supply for their drinking water froze even though the plumbing line was over 3 feet underground.

We haven't experienced below 0 temperatures in several years.

I can also attest to how much better the air quality is in the Northeast Corridor compared to when I was a kid. I do not want to go back to the days when my eyes stung just by walking down to the store.

Do you really want to hurt your public standing among your future customers by getting sideways in a wedge issue between the moneyed interests and folks who care about their children's future?

Brian


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1114
Location: B'more Maryland
Rick Rowlands wrote:
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Why would someone working at the EPA, who you just called "steeped in ideology and undereducated", want to come listen to anything you have to say after you insult them?


I invite you to provide evidence to show that what I said is incorrect.

Pretending that the world is something other than what it truly is will not serve us, and I don't like pretending.


It will be tough without actually knowing or talking to people at the EPA. Since you have a vested interest in their work (the EPA doesn't care about the hot air my team generates in the professional services), you might want to actually engage with them.

_________________
If you fear the future you won't have one.
The past was the worst.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
It will be tough without actually knowing or talking to people at the EPA. Since you have a vested interest in their work (the EPA doesn't care about the hot air my team generates in the professional services), you might want to actually engage with them.

The problem with this otherwise valid suggestion is perhaps best expressed by the old adage:

"It is better to seek forgiveness than to ask permission."

Or, "don't rock the boat."

There are many instances, especially in government regulation, where seeking even clarification on an otherwise obscure or not-yet-quantified complex situation will result in the enforcing agency or office then presuming it's their job to impose such regulation, whether it's actually appropriate or not.

A classic example: Are the boilers on Brother Rowlands' steam locomotives covered under the state boiler code, the state utilities commission, any Ohio railroad/transportation code, or the Federal Railroad Administration? Thanks to considerable proactive work years ago by the Tourist RR Assn./ATTRM, the authority for regs have been clearly outlined in this case. But there have been many other cases or examples where they have not been. Another example was mead, or "gluten-free beer," made at beer strength. Is it taxed as beer or wine? (The feds declared the latter, at a much higher cost built into the price as a result.)

Another example: is "vaping" banned in a restaurant or bar? It's not smoking, after all. I had to confront "vapers" in a bar setting (when I was employed at that moment) before the regs were refined. The stock answer from them was "The law says 'no smoking'; we're in a corner away from anyone else, and no one is complaining, or are they?" I stopped, thought a minute, and said, "I have no answer for that, legal or otherwise; carry on until someone complains!" They thanked me, usually.

And for every bureaucrat that will listen to your query and just dismiss you to avoid more work, there's another one looking for some way to make their jobs relevant and create more "job security."

We already should know which way Brother Rowlands considers the issue, and many would not blame him one iota.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1114
Location: B'more Maryland
No, my point is that, unless the relevant stakeholders have been engaged that you're not doing your job.

The idea that "security through obscurity" will save anyone is a terrible idea.

If someone has an operable steam locomotive, and you're concerned that some agency is going to shut you down, then they should be working WITH that agency, not just ranting against it on the Internet.

Politics is a participatory game.

_________________
If you fear the future you won't have one.
The past was the worst.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Politics is a participatory game.


That's the catch. IT's A GAME.

It's a game some people choose not to play, while others wish to force everyone to play.

See also: Religion.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
softwerkslex wrote:
If these weather and rain conditions continue for the next few years, you won't need to worry about fire bans and steam locomotives, because there will not be any trees or scenic views to motivate the train ride.

It's great to debate the science, but the "conservative" approach would be to have a plan B in case the really undesirable prediction becomes reality. Arguing that there is a 50% chance you are correct and therefore there is nothing to worry about, is not a bet I would take.


I like to test predictions, whether based on theory or speculation with results. I fully recognize that for some things, fabulous credentials don't always translate to practical predictive ability (see for example, all of the PhD's associated with the epic failure Long Term Capital Management) while some people just seem to have a preternatural aptitude-such as Nassim Taleb's fictional trader "Fat Tony"

Al Gore is one of those people who made "really undesirable" predictions . A government major (ok, maybe he's got an aptitude) whose middling academic performance somehow (father was a Senator, cough, cough) reportedly was an avid reader who fell in love with scientific and mathematical theories, but he did not do well in science classes and avoided taking math. When he went to Vanderbilt law school he dropped out. But who needs fluid dynamics and thermodynamic education when discussing the application of energy to gasses, right?

But not one to be stopped in the pursuit of profit by a lack of relevant credentials, Al made a prediction when he was grifting his movie. He claimed that we were going to experience more tornadoes and more importantly, more of the most severe tornadoes (EF-4 and EF-5).

The "Tornadoes 2022" page on Wikipedia shows as of this writing, 773 Tornadoes. Of that number, there have been 2 (Two) EF-4's and no EF-5's.

In fact, there hasn't been an EF-5 since May

Of 2013.

That's right, we have now gone 9 years, 3 months without a pavement sucker.

It's one of the longest "droughts" on record and one we can actually enjoy.

Suckers listen to Al.

If he can't accurately predict conditions, his prescriptions are useless and maybe dangerous, not terribly unlike the malware seller and Epstein buddy, Bill Gates who was being consulted as a virus expert, despite the lack of any medical training or experience.

Both are "useless eaters". The only sound I will listen to emanating from these meddlesome malevolent sociopaths is terminal respiratory secretions, assuming I don't expire first.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 250
superheater wrote:
softwerkslex wrote:
If these weather and rain conditions continue for the next few years, you won't need to worry about fire bans and steam locomotives, because there will not be any trees or scenic views to motivate the train ride.

It's great to debate the science, but the "conservative" approach would be to have a plan B in case the really undesirable prediction becomes reality. Arguing that there is a 50% chance you are correct and therefore there is nothing to worry about, is not a bet I would take.


I like to test predictions, whether based on theory or speculation with results. I fully recognize that for some things, fabulous credentials don't always translate to practical predictive ability (see for example, all of the PhD's associated with the epic failure Long Term Capital Management) while some people just seem to have a preternatural aptitude-such as Nassim Taleb's fictional trader "Fat Tony"

Al Gore is one of those people who made "really undesirable" predictions . A government major (ok, maybe he's got an aptitude) whose middling academic performance somehow (father was a Senator, cough, cough) reportedly was an avid reader who fell in love with scientific and mathematical theories, but he did not do well in science classes and avoided taking math. When he went to Vanderbilt law school he dropped out. But who needs fluid dynamics and thermodynamic education when discussing the application of energy to gasses, right?

But not one to be stopped in the pursuit of profit by a lack of relevant credentials, Al made a prediction when he was grifting his movie. He claimed that we were going to experience more tornadoes and more importantly, more of the most severe tornadoes (EF-4 and EF-5).

The "Tornadoes 2022" page on Wikipedia shows as of this writing, 773 Tornadoes. Of that number, there have been 2 (Two) EF-4's and no EF-5's.

In fact, there hasn't been an EF-5 since May

Of 2013.

That's right, we have now gone 9 years, 3 months without a pavement sucker.

It's one of the longest "droughts" on record and one we can actually enjoy.

Suckers listen to Al.

If he can't accurately predict conditions, his prescriptions are useless and maybe dangerous, not terribly unlike the malware seller and Epstein buddy, Bill Gates who was being consulted as a virus expert, despite the lack of any medical training or experience.

Both are "useless eaters". The only sound I will listen to emanating from these meddlesome malevolent sociopaths is terminal respiratory secretions, assuming I don't expire first.


I personally have made a bunch of predictions over my life time. I'm batting far better than any major league baseball player. Yet it stupefies me to see that a few wrong predictions over many that turn out more than correct - even if the were not harsh enough - are reasons to throw the baby out with the bath water.

With over a million USA Citizens dead -and worse yet over 300,000 USA citizens who refused to get vaccinated DEAD, from Coviud-19 do you really want to release the floodgates of the wedge issues that the richest folks who have ever walked the planet Earth are using - via a certain Fair and Balanced Propaganda Wing - to distract you from the fact that they have picked your pocket and all of your multi-generations of offspring's pocket as well?

The Supreme Court violated their Sacred Oath to defend the Constitution when they chose to destroy Article I, Section 4, Clause 1.

Just think of a world without ISIS and over half a million deaths directly attributable to USA Oil Company Imperialism.

Brian


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
choodude wrote:
superheater wrote:
softwerkslex wrote:
If these weather and rain conditions continue for the next few years, you won't need to worry about fire bans and steam locomotives, because there will not be any trees or scenic views to motivate the train ride.

It's great to debate the science, but the "conservative" approach would be to have a plan B in case the really undesirable prediction becomes reality. Arguing that there is a 50% chance you are correct and therefore there is nothing to worry about, is not a bet I would take.


I like to test predictions, whether based on theory or speculation with results. I fully recognize that for some things, fabulous credentials don't always translate to practical predictive ability (see for example, all of the PhD's associated with the epic failure Long Term Capital Management) while some people just seem to have a preternatural aptitude-such as Nassim Taleb's fictional trader "Fat Tony"

Al Gore is one of those people who made "really undesirable" predictions . A government major (ok, maybe he's got an aptitude) whose middling academic performance somehow (father was a Senator, cough, cough) reportedly was an avid reader who fell in love with scientific and mathematical theories, but he did not do well in science classes and avoided taking math. When he went to Vanderbilt law school he dropped out. But who needs fluid dynamics and thermodynamic education when discussing the application of energy to gasses, right?

But not one to be stopped in the pursuit of profit by a lack of relevant credentials, Al made a prediction when he was grifting his movie. He claimed that we were going to experience more tornadoes and more importantly, more of the most severe tornadoes (EF-4 and EF-5).

The "Tornadoes 2022" page on Wikipedia shows as of this writing, 773 Tornadoes. Of that number, there have been 2 (Two) EF-4's and no EF-5's.

In fact, there hasn't been an EF-5 since May

Of 2013.

That's right, we have now gone 9 years, 3 months without a pavement sucker.

It's one of the longest "droughts" on record and one we can actually enjoy.

Suckers listen to Al.

If he can't accurately predict conditions, his prescriptions are useless and maybe dangerous, not terribly unlike the malware seller and Epstein buddy, Bill Gates who was being consulted as a virus expert, despite the lack of any medical training or experience.

Both are "useless eaters". The only sound I will listen to emanating from these meddlesome malevolent sociopaths is terminal respiratory secretions, assuming I don't expire first.


I personally have made a bunch of predictions over my life time. I'm batting far better than any major league baseball player. Yet it stupefies me to see that a few wrong predictions over many that turn out more than correct - even if the were not harsh enough - are reasons to throw the baby out with the bath water.

With over a million USA Citizens dead -and worse yet over 300,000 USA citizens who refused to get vaccinated DEAD, from Coviud-19 do you really want to release the floodgates of the wedge issues that the richest folks who have ever walked the planet Earth are using - via a certain Fair and Balanced Propaganda Wing - to distract you from the fact that they have picked your pocket and all of your multi-generations of offspring's pocket as well?

The Supreme Court violated their Sacred Oath to defend the Constitution when they chose to destroy Article I, Section 4, Clause 1.

Just think of a world without ISIS and over half a million deaths directly attributable to USA Oil Company Imperialism.

Brian




There was no baby in Gore's bathwater. To his credit, his name doesn't appear on Epstein manifests, unlike his former boss. If you want to measure success as a baseball metaphor, try fielding percentage.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/lead ... reer.shtml


Despite the fact that Einstein has a perfect record, there was an experiment conducted to see whether a rotating mass would distort space. (The Geodetic effect; one experiment lasted longer than lives of some designers).

Ironically, the people that complain about oil company profits never complain about government profits on oil, and seem to have misplaced their indignity when it comes to Pfizer's windfalls built on coercion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/busi ... ofits.html


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:15 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Tualatin, Oregon
I have an idea how to avoid the smoky photo run-by problems:
Make all steam photo-op operations run only on cold damp mornings. Then all the pictures people will have to post are of clouds of white exhaust (with a slight gray haze) shooting up into the sky. Then we can emphasize that the exhaust is mostly water vapor. I'm saying that somewhat tongue-in-cheek but you have to admit that it is the only way you can get the dramatic photo without tons of smoke.

I always cringe when I see a steam engine with a cloud of black smoke above it. Not that I think it is some sort of horrible pollution issue. It's the perceived issue by people who are not railfans that bothers me. We all know steam engines can operate without clouds of black smoke coming out of them, but most of the general public do not know that. It's up to us to do what we can to minimize the negative impressions of our operations.

_________________
Joe Mann


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
JMann wrote:
I have an idea how to avoid the smoky photo run-by problems:
Make all steam photo-op operations run only on cold damp mornings. Then all the pictures people will have to post are of clouds of white exhaust (with a slight gray haze) shooting up into the sky. Then we can emphasize that the exhaust is mostly water vapor. I'm saying that somewhat tongue-in-cheek but you have to admit that it is the only way you can get the dramatic photo without tons of smoke.

I always cringe when I see a steam engine with a cloud of black smoke above it. Not that I think it is some sort of horrible pollution issue. It's the perceived issue by people who are not railfans that bothers me. We all know steam engines can operate without clouds of black smoke coming out of them, but most of the general public do not know that. It's up to us to do what we can to minimize the negative impressions of our operations.


First of all, if there's a good reason to hold back from having a giant black dump out of the stack, it's because it's wasteful and non-historical.

On the other hand, you have the Phila Backs (corrected) of the world, who have entirely too much time and bitterness, and spend their time being joykills. As a reminder, PB (who I believe is a Kutztown Univ. professor and exemplar of Nassim Taleb's idea of IYI) presented a six page list of demands to the Kutztown Borough in a transparent attempt to constructively shut down the Allentown and Auburn.

https://www.kutztownboro.org/wp-content ... 192019.pdf

It's my personal opinion, she (I think, but I'm a nihilist- not a biologist) and people like her are the inspiration for Phil Hendrie's "Bobbie Dooley" character (Phil is Bobbie and the irate callers are rubes not in on the show) presented here putting a garden hose on a 9/11 vigil against the backdrop of the Aerotrain headed up Horseshoe Curve on MSTS. I have no idea what MSTS has to do with Phil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W-gqYltspI


Last edited by superheater on Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:01 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
JMann wrote:
I have an idea how to avoid the smoky photo run-by problems:
Make all steam photo-op operations run only on cold damp mornings.


We're being repeatedly told that those are now only a thing of the past....................


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:28 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2213
I thought Phila's last name was Back. And that no one in power in Kutztown took her particularly seriously.

I agree with the point about establishing good working relationships with staffers at various levels of the EPA and similarly 'environmental' agencies that might have authority at some future point over steam operations. Explicitly coal-fired operations using chemically-unmodified coal as that material comes to be more and more demonized. Somewhat ironically Ms. Back seemed to be complaining about 'particulates' from coal firing when they are far more significant from the idling diesels...

Frankly, what I think needs to happen is that she needs to lobby Kutztown University's applied physics and engineering department to make a grant proposal to build a combination preluber/Hotstart/intake pressurizer and preheater that would allow the Allentown and Auburn to shut the main diesel down without compromise at most all the time it isn't needed for propulsion. Have the University build it with grant money, or solicit funding from that new-projects fund the city was developing. Bet they could sell it to a bunch of other prospective lines, too!

_________________
R.M.Ellsworth


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:34 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
Posts: 640
Location: Ipswich, UK
The UK Met Office have issued another extreme heat warning from Thurs/Fri/Sat/Sun this week, though it's not expected to be as bad as the 100F+ figures last month, more likely well into the 90's F.
Several preserved lines have already suspended steam services again as a result of the continuing dry conditions in parts of the Country and some mainline steam runs are having diesels substituted or "assisting".......

_________________
My Flikr page https://www.flickr.com/photos/72399068@N08/sets


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
Overmod wrote:
I thought Phila's last name was Back. And that no one in power in Kutztown took her particularly seriously.

I agree with the point about establishing good working relationships with staffers at various levels of the EPA and similarly 'environmental' agencies that might have authority at some future point over steam operations. Explicitly coal-fired operations using chemically-unmodified coal as that material comes to be more and more demonized. Somewhat ironically Ms. Back seemed to be complaining about 'particulates' from coal firing when they are far more significant from the idling diesels...

Frankly, what I think needs to happen is that she needs to lobby Kutztown University's applied physics and engineering department to make a grant proposal to build a combination preluber/Hotstart/intake pressurizer and preheater that would allow the Allentown and Auburn to shut the main diesel down without compromise at most all the time it isn't needed for propulsion. Have the University build it with grant money, or solicit funding from that new-projects fund the city was developing. Bet they could sell it to a bunch of other prospective lines, too!


You are correct; I'm not sure if my reading or typing failed me on this one; anyway thanks for the copyediting.

Unfortunately, even cursory dismissal involves a waste of time. I couldn't sit there and not burst out laughing derisively and ask "do you know how bat guano crazy you sound?, take your inane, malefactory nonsense to the faculty meeting".

That's an interesting idea; but what are the DEI implications? Laugh if you want, but recently German physicist Sabine Hossenfelder (love the way she says Ein-SHTEIN) was completing some application that requested this stuff (keep in mind, she's mostly into theoretical physics and cosmology) and solicited assistance with the caveat that she had no idea how to answer this sort of question. She was hammered into submission for asking the question and ended issuing an apology for admitting her inability to answer the question.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Now Britain is Removing Steam Locos For Wildfire Risk...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:37 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2213
You mean diversity and inclusion initiatives? Easy! Do special outreach to minority and woman engineers, and to other groups that may have emerged as organized entities in the last few years of genderfluid fun. Reach out to other communities at the University, for example in writing the documentation, developing 'use cases' for the equipment outside locomotives, or putting together the organizations to produce and market the systems.

Then have priority pids for minority or women-owned businesses to produce parts of the systems, and perhaps to serve as consultants in implementing and supporting them.

_________________
R.M.Ellsworth


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Emmo213, Google [Bot], SD70dude, wesp and 134 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: