Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

So, is East Terminal dead? or just slumbering?

In his last video, Brian alluded to news about a customer and good things for ETR in August.

Both NS and CSX, as I recall, had a list of conditions for their 'lines to be spun off', including some guarantee of continued service quality. Frankly, Ray's discussion here does not convince me that he could provide that 'from day one', even if he could raise the asking price for the operating rights.

For some reason, I get the impression he's wanting to get a "railroad" in full operating condition, from someone who will sell it cheap or treat it as 'abandoned', and then run trains without regard to track maintenance or repair. I'd like to be wrong about that.

I was asking both NS and CSX about the availability of some of there branch lines that appeared to be sold off or short-lined.

And yes I do understand that is the best way to start a railroad, but if I was to get an abandoned branch line I would have to spend the money to rebuild the tracks, find customers that might be interested I shipping by rail, and get the land for the needed infrastructure to do all of that which all is very expensive and time consuming. Sadly I do not have that kind of money do to the that I am a blue collar guy working in a quarry while trying to start a freight railroad

To paraphrase J.P.Morgan: if you can't list your costs in detail, you can't afford it.

That is why I have created this chat to help me identify some of the costs that I may not know fully/know at all.

I do know that on my own I do not have to money to start a railroad, besides a model railroad and maybe a live steam railroad too.

Ray-have you considered either (1) volunteering for a museum/tourist railroad, and/or (2) working for a local shortline railroad?

I've had the same dream you've had, but as many point out here, it may be a tough nut to crack. I haven't had that dream in years; I'm content to volunteer in rail preservation/operation.

Volunteering is a good way to enjoy railroading as a hobby, without the money issues and other headaches.

A shortline railroad might be a way for you to see up-close what's involved on the business side, before you go further in potentially taking the plunge.

Hello Ray,
Welcome to the forum!

As someone who has had this dream a long time, I can relate.

I did manage to start a shortline railroad on a line that had been sitting dormant, cleared over 10 miles of trees, did trackwork, and opened about 6 miles. There were no real customers on the line, but there was lots of potential. My mistake was choosing a business partner whose 'we' turned to 'I' as soon as some money came in. I found out he was not treating people we did business with honorably, nor myself, so I walked away and lost my investment in time and money. All because of not having protected myself legally as to my rights to my portion of the company. He was my friend and I trusted that way too much. All the line is currently doing is car storage, which can be profitable.

I can tell you several things-
-The Class 1s won't lease or sell you anything, until you have built a relationship with them in some way, and you are a known entity.
-It takes years, took 5 years to find a line to lease (owned by a company not a RR)
-You have to know the industry from the ground up. Like others have said, get dirty. Learn trackwork, learn operations, learn mechanics Unless you have a fortune to invest right away and hire the people to do the dirty work, you will be out there changing ties in the rain or fixing a locomotive at 2am so you can switch a customer in the morning. So you better know how to do it.
-Understand how businesses work, cost analysis, and how a company might want to ship by rail, but it isn't profitable for you or if it is the class one might not think so, so they won't move it.
-The 100 cars per mile still holds as a good rule to be able to make a line profitable.
-Be ready for shear mountains, upon mountains, of paperwork and rules, laws and requirements to be completed before you even turn a wheel. Drug programs, roadway worker programs, locomotive engineer program, conductor program, locomotive inspections, track inspections, a bridge program if the line has them, welded rail program if it has that, rules classes, safety briefings, a timetable, and on, and on.
-It is impossible to do alone. You will need people. Track people, people who have run trains before, someone to help you with above paperwork. You can't do it alone to get started. As my story of what happened above shows, have air tight documents prepared by a lawyer if you have a partner or investors.

I only even considered trying to start a shortline after I had the following-
-Started volunteering at the South Carolina Railroad Museum at 15, operated locomotives, became a conductor, repaired track, cars, and locomotives.
-Worked 6 years at the Eastern Shore/Bay Coast Railroad. Worked as an engineer, conductor, standby yardmaster, mechanic, and helped in the office learning billing, waybilling, invoicing, and all the above mountains of paperwork
-Worked 13 years running the Shaw AFB Railroad, doing everything from trackwork to the paperwork

So I have 27 years of experience, with almost all aspects of small railroad operations and management.

I'm having to start all over again, but at least I left with my good name and reputation intact, which means a lot. I still had my railroad hyrail maintenance trucks, and my skills, so I started getting trackwork jobs for industries and tourist lines, helped to ship several antique cars and locomotives by rebuilding brake systems and doing the paperwork and coordination with the class 1s, and have just purchased a plot of land with 1800ft of track on it to build a laydown yard, restoration shop, and got some people interested in transloading. I'll become a known entity to NS (connecting road) and that might one day allow me to inquire about a branch with potential, and they might actually talk to me about it.

I see doing all the work above as my stepping stone to having the dream again- my own shortline. And if I never get another line? Well, at least I'm making a living doing something I enjoy.

Long story short, you need to do whatever you can to learn the business from the ground up, and it will probably take a looooong time before something falls in place.

Interesting update.. a real roller coaster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJTXlMHthPQ

Adam M-brilliant and well-written. That is a Hall of Fame writeup if ever I saw one.

I've had similar musings, only on the nonprofit operating museum/historical society side of things. I joined up here a quite a few months ago, planning on asking for advice to get started. Just pointers to available resources and literature that could help me put together my own ground floor basic feasibility study before going beyond that.

After monitoring a few threads I shied away, as a lot (not all as demonstrated by a few great replies on this thread) of users on this forum seem to go into attack mode at the mere thought of anyone who isn't an established railroader attempting anything.


I will add that both Andy Muller(teacher/jewelry shop owner) and Alan Maples(kid straight out of high school) entered into the game as outsiders to the industry. IIRC Mr. Maples used the money his parents saved for him to go to college to purchase the Everett RR at 18 or 19 years old. Mr. Muller started the RBMN on a few streaks of rust, purchased several hundred miles of unprofitable Conrail routes that were dilapidated and on the verge of abandonment, turned it around and rejuvenated an entire region with one of the last "real" customer oriented railroad operations in the country.
I'm sure if you want it bad enough and are willing to dig into the nitty gritty of it you could make it happen.
Good luck to you!

There's also the idea of opportunity cost to keep in mind.

Is starting a railroad really the easiest way to earn a living?

Is it easier than the alternatives you have available?

If not, then honestly, your time (your greatest asset) is probably best spent on something that is.

If you're talking about sinking your own money into the venture, you'd be irresponsible to not look into what other investments you could make that will be far safer and provide a higher rate of return. Odds are that there are quite a few of them.

I'm not saying it's impossible to start a railroad, but it IS going to be very challenging if you're trying to do it as a mom and pop operation.

When I initially started probing the idea myself, it wasn't to become a millionaire. If I could scratch out $70-100k a year doing it I would, seeing the impact a well run operation can have on the surrounding communities. The RBMN helped spearhead the revival of the anthracite industry while attracting other industrial development to the communities surrounding the line. A great many people now have good paying jobs in what was once a declining area, thanks in no small part to the railroad.

I live amongst the decaying coal and steel towns on the opposite side of the state, where it seems rail is ripped up for another worthless million dollar bike trail every other day. Most people around here work for $15 an hour at a Dollar General or Sheetz, and drug use and crime are ever on the rise. I'd love to see what such an endeavor, properly executed, could accomplish...because the pedal bike tourism approach has created net zero benefit for the region except a yearly tax drain on what little is in the local coffers.
For some, or me at least, it's not about getting rich, but making a positive impact and possibly having some fun doing it.
The regulatory and financial hurdles to run a for profit freight railroad are daunting, however, and that is why I retracted the scope of my interest.

I don’t think many of us here actually mean to go into “attack mode”. Though we can sometimes be a bit of a bristly group to broad newbie questions that require expansive answers. I apologize for that. Once you get past some of the snark, you can get some really good info here.

It sounds like you have done your due diligence and I commend you for it.

And… Welcome to RYPN, both you and the OP.