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 Post subject: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
Although not often expressed explicitly, many respondents to my posts about Steamtown implicitly operate from the perspective that the NPS axiomatically wants to attract, accommodate and satisfy the visiting public.

And unfortunately, that would be wrong. What you need to understand is that I heard over the years, numerous individuals express an interesting idea that the 1916 Organic Act the laws and regulations that amplify and clarify the following mission

"....to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations."


have an unstated corollary that can be expressed as follows:

And that means there is no duty to provide for the enjoyment of the present generation.

Now to be sure, that is not a universal attitude, in my experience not even a majority attitude-but it's prevalent enough that one cannot assume that the NPS has a primary objective to increase visitation or visitor interaction.

Evidence of this attitude is hard to acquire. The NPS is filled with enough politically savvy individuals to realize that open indifference to visitors is not a good idea, since it is not a unit of government that enjoys the loyalty of an engaged constituency, such as Social Security-the "third rail of American politics".

However, every once in a while, they show a little leg. This article is from March, but we're coming up on the Anniversary of the battle so note this. In a year that's following two where visitation was prohibited, restricted and regulated-Gettysburg is closing two of the most sought after "attractions".

The money phrase:

The National Military Park sees about 1 million visitors in a year with the highest visitation over the summer so it’s not necessarily the best time for a big revamp. But it’s when the government funding was available.

As if it wouldn't be available in say, September or October?

https://local21news.com/news/local/two- ... enovations


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1114
Location: B'more Maryland
So, how close to the eye is the bit of that axe that you keep grinding now?

_________________
If you fear the future you won't have one.
The past was the worst.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
So, how close to the eye is the bit of that axe that you keep grinding now?


I'd say that however tiresome he may be by now (still nowhere near the levels of the guy that repeatedly made it his mission to "privatize Steamtown"), there are some valid points to his observations. Ignore them (if you're dealing with such a place) at your peril.

I have seen the clash between the "everything must be preserved without human interference" philosophy and the "the taxpayers own this, after all" philosophy play out in many, many arenas. I ended up with a couple books on the 1988 wildfires in Yellowstone and their aftermath not long ago, and they're fascinating reading, especially when you've actually gone to Yellowstone and seen the aftermath thirty-plus years later. And now we're seeing the battle play out again as workers rush to reopen as much of the park to the public as soon as possible after the recent flooding.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:07 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1477
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
So, how close to the eye is the bit of that axe that you keep grinding now?


It’s amazing isn’t it? All this over my suggestion that Steamtown operates a few more excursions and advertises them to railfans that will be traveling to Pennsylvania to see the 2102. I’m sure I’ll be called names and insulted again for daring to type such crazy words yet again! :-p


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:38 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
So, how close to the eye is the bit of that axe that you keep grinding now?


It's actually meant for the those with institutional curiosity and the capacity to indulge it. Feel free to pass over without comment if you find disinteresting.

Crescent-Zypher wrote:
It’s amazing isn’t it? All this over my suggestion that Steamtown operates a few more excursions and advertises them to railfans that will be traveling to Pennsylvania to see the 2102. I’m sure I’ll be called names and insulted again for daring to type such crazy words yet again! :-p


I suppose "not everything is about you" is an insult. If I wanted to address you on the prior matter, I'd have put this in the other thread. You probably should assume internet interlocutors actually don't give you a second thought after they respond, because for the most part, they move on, and don't care about the exchange.

This has NOTHING to do with you, but was brought to my attention by a former fellow-traveler.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

I'd say that however tiresome he may be by now (still nowhere near the levels of the guy that repeatedly made it his mission to "privatize Steamtown"), there are some valid points to his observations. Ignore them (if you're dealing with such a place) at your peril.



I will tell you that despite almost two decades of battle, Mr. Rowland and I had a pleasant and cordial conversation by telephone a few weeks ago. The scope of the discussion principally about the status of the present situation of both the park, the IHS and my departure from both and my public change of heart.

While I still don't think privatization is the answer for a variety of reasons, including the fact that decommissioning is an arduous process and Scranton is a dying city without sufficient population density to support a private venture, we rather agreed on the fact that unlike the many Battlefields, Steamtown presents an unique problem in that there is not similar units where staff can be drawn and the NPS' authority is both broad and expansive.

The Department of Justice has an interesting page on the Organic Act and relevant other cases, regulations and statutes.

It is only for an intended and interested audience; so if you haven't asked for it, feel free to pass over without comment.

https://www.justice.gov/enrd/nps-organic-act


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:32 am
Posts: 236
One problem with the NPS mission statement as it applies to Steamtown is that if the historic items are not preserved for the current generation, they won't be around for the enjoyment of future generations, as locomotives and rolling stock continue to rust away and wood continues to rot. The NPS has utterly failed in their mission in their handling of these artifacts as evidenced by the fact that some rolling stock considered too far gone has already been scrapped. It probably won't be very long until it happens again.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Next year is the 160th anniversary of the Battle (this weekend is the exact 159th July 1-3, 1863) Devils Den is now closed but will be open for the 160th next year. It and Little Round Top were the site of Round 2 of the battle, where Lee attacked the Union center, which held.

Little Round Top is better known for the 20th Maine's stand against Confederate Gen'l John Bell Hood's attack up the hill. The Mainers held with a bayonet attack down the hill which routed the Southerners. It will be open until later in July this year but will be closed next year.

Here's a link to the Park's site discussing the work.
https://www.nps.gov/gett/planyourvisit/conditions.htm

Be sure to click on "more" for each site and go to the question, "Why will the Little Round Top and Devil's Den rehabilitation project closures overlap?"

Disclaimer: I knew the Superintendent when he was at Valley Forge. I was very impressed. He's a Civil Engineer and is from, of all places, Tehachapi CA.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:12 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
EJ Berry wrote:
Next year is the 160th anniversary of the Battle (this weekend is the exact 159th July 1-3, 1863) Devils Den is now closed but will be open for the 160th next year. It and Little Round Top were the site of Round 2 of the battle, where Lee attacked the Union center, which held.

Little Round Top is better known for the 20th Maine's stand against Confederate Gen'l John Bell Hood's attack up the hill. The Mainers held with a bayonet attack down the hill which routed the Southerners. It will be open until later in July this year but will be closed next year.

Here's a link to the Park's site discussing the work.
https://www.nps.gov/gett/planyourvisit/conditions.htm

Be sure to click on "more" for each site and go to the question, "Why will the Little Round Top and Devil's Den rehabilitation project closures overlap?"

Disclaimer: I knew the Superintendent when he was at Valley Forge. I was very impressed. He's a Civil Engineer and is from, of all places, Tehachapi CA.

Phil Mulligan


But of course, he's an MBA.

In all seriousness, having been a military officer might have been the most important park of his background for that assignment.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:17 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 985
Location: Warren, PA
I've now worked in direct relationship with NPS on four different projects and sites.

It's not entirely consistent across locations, or consistent over time. The individual park superintendents have a significant degree of 'interpretation' of their own mission. And I do disagree that NPS doesn't care about attendance. They may not in certain situations, for reasons only known to them, but much like religion, the bigger the draw and the bigger the park the bigger the budget, so that's where you want to be in your career progression like anyplace else.

But there is a real conflict in mission that naturally occurs on being accessible vs. preservation, I saw it out at Mt. Rainier when the big floods out there took out parking lots, bridges, etc. Much like Yellowstone is now. So, do you excavate all the rock and debris back out of the river channel and put the parking lots back for visitors, or say that's due to the force of nature and leave it?

I saw a 'realistic' call in the field made at Cuyahoga many years ago as CVSR was allowed to run Thomas, successfully, after years of saying 'NO', and all those Thomas riders are counted as 'park visitors' because they board at Independence. That has really increased 'visitation' without damaging the park, so say what you want, it's interpreted to be in their overall interest. Similarly, NPS 'helps' preserve the limited access to ticket holders at the steam events so the best photo runby locations are for paying customers. Didn't expect to see that, but again, realistic.

I've been less impressed with Steamtown for a variety of reasons, but to me, the juxtaposition of the Electric City Trolley right beside Steamtown is a most interesting contrast on the overall approach to a viable attraction. It would be less of a debate if they weren't side-by-side there targeting an identical market.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
Randy Gustafson wrote:
. And I do disagree that NPS doesn't care about attendance.




Except that's not what I wrote.

"Now to be sure, that is not a universal attitude, in my experience not even a majority attitude-but it's prevalent enough that one cannot assume that the NPS has a primary objective to increase visitation or visitor interaction."


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 2557
Location: Sackets Harbor, NY
I visited the Soviet Union in 1969 because I wanted to see how the people really lived under communism. Our second city on the 14 day itinerary was Kiev and we stayed in a 2 year old hotel where nothing worked. The elevators were out of service, the lights came on and off unpredictably, no heat ( it was 10 degrees F outside) and the pipes froze during our first night there.

Our Intourist supplied guide finally got honest when I asked her how is it possible that in a practically new hotel nothing works?. She said" look, the best plumber gets paid the same as the worst plumber, the best electrician gets paid the same as the worst electrician etc. so no one cares and most of them drink cheap vodka all day".

In other words no incentive to excel.

How's that relevant to attendance at Steamtown?

The staff from the Super on down gets the same paycheck whether there's 5 visitors a day or 500 visitors a day or 5,000. In a perverse way less is better as there's less chance of something going wrong.

Sad but true. Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:27 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
co614 wrote:
I visited the Soviet Union in 1969 because I wanted to see how the people really lived under communism. Our second city on the 14 day itinerary was Kiev and we stayed in a 2 year old hotel where nothing worked. The elevators were out of service, the lights came on and off unpredictably, no heat ( it was 10 degrees F outside) and the pipes froze during our first night there.

Our Intourist supplied guide finally got honest when I asked her how is it possible that in a practically new hotel nothing works?. She said" look, the best plumber gets paid the same as the worst plumber, the best electrician gets paid the same as the worst electrician etc. so no one cares and most of them drink cheap vodka all day".

In other words no incentive to excel.

How's that relevant to attendance at Steamtown?

The staff from the Super on down gets the same paycheck whether there's 5 visitors a day or 500 visitors a day or 5,000. In a perverse way less is better as there's less chance of something going wrong.

Sad but true. Ross Rowland


That comports with the accounts my late grandmother provided after visiting relatives behind the Iron Curtin (as the daughter of immigrants, she was impeccably fluent in the language and customs, so she was immediately accepted as family). Her one cousin was a local municipal official, and told her everybody's a communist, but nobody believes it. He also told her that she should make another trip, bring a dozen pair of blue jeans and make a nice profit on her trip as testament to his rejection of the official line. She never was able to make a third trip. Everybody had a job, but they took their own sweet time about things. Everybody was busy, but there wasn't much productivity.


But you don't have to go to some worker's paradise see how it works. Some day, I'm going to be able to write a book about my experience in and around government. Once you realize that it's intended purpose is to remain standing when everything else is not, you realize the intuitional resistance to change and criticism, the redundancies, the limited scope and intensity of the responsibilities of various positions, the procedures and routines all serve that purpose. Government is meant to be a dreadnought, not a speedboat.

If you design an airplane (private sector) you want it to be as light as possible for speed and efficiency. If you design a locomotive (government) you might actually order the unit ballasted to increase weight and adhesion. Two different purposes,, two different design imperatives-complete polar opposites.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:45 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 250
superheater wrote:
But you don't have to go to some worker's paradise see how it works. Some day, I'm going to be able to write a book about my experience in and around government. Once you realize that it's intended purpose is to remain standing when everything else is not, you realize the intuitional resistance to change and criticism, the redundancies, the limited scope and intensity of the responsibilities of various positions, the procedures and routines all serve that purpose. Government is meant to be a dreadnought, not a speedboat.


I would just like to add that any large bureaucracy Public or Private tends to be the same way.

This is based on my extended family's work experiences in both large medical and technology companies.

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtown: Understanding the NPS through Gettysburg
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:14 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1742
Location: Back in NE Ohio
Somewhat related issue for the CVSR. As most of you know, the Park Service owns the RoW from Independence to the Howard St. bridge in downtown Akron. Akron Metro RTA owns the line from there to Canton. Earlier this year over the late Winter/early Spring there was high water in the Cuyahoga River that eroded the river bank close to, but not over the tracks just north of Boston Mills, so service was suspended south of Vaughn Rd. (Jaite order station) until the bank was shored up. Well, they've dumped hundreds of tons of rip-rap along the banks, but they are still waiting for an inspector from the park service to come out and approve it before they can run trains through there again. It was supposed to be re-opened by June, and this is June 29...


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