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 Post subject: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:57 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:26 pm
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good evening from Vancouver WA,

i am a massive fan of the SP, and i have been trying to find out if 4460 is in good enough condition to be restored. and if so, how much would it cost for her to be back in servicable?,

if anyone knows what the chances of brining the Forgotten Daylight back into service are?


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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:09 am 
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152696 wrote:
good evening from Vancouver WA,

i am a massive fan of the SP, and i have been trying to find out if 4460 is in good enough condition to be restored. and if so, how much would it cost for her to be back in servicable?,

if anyone knows what the chances of brining the Forgotten Daylight back into service are?


4460, like many other steamers, has a chance of running again but its highly unlikely for many reasons.

1) 4449 already is up and running, and it can probably be painted or modified to represent other engines of its class, other paint schemes or other classes except the GS-1.
2) Getting it out of the museum is complicated due to where it might be in the museum AND trying to work with Union Pacific for they own the rails right outside the museum.
3) Where would she run? Who would she run with?
4) If the owner wants to install PSR and if other railroads will host such an excursion.

In regards to pricing, consider the following.

How much the engine will cost you if the museum will sell it but not lease/loan, how much it'll cost to get it ready FOR moving, how much the move will cost to where you plan to restore it, and how much the restoration overall will cost.

Not to rain on your parade but 4460 might remain a display for a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:38 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
4460 is a fine looking locomotive and yes, like most of us, we'd love to see all our favorite designs brought back to service. For my part, at least for the indefinite future, 4460 is in a safe place and attended to by serious custodians. She's in good hands.

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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:49 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
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Location: Pacific, MO
Quite a few years ago, 4460 was sandblasted and painted. Any of you who have seen how the abrasive grit will absolutely get everywhere in the running gear will understand that total disassembly is job one. Engine has moved around the museum since the painting. so I'm sure journals, etc, have been damaged. 4460 is solid bearings.
Nothing is impossible and if you have a warehouse full of money, a talented group or company, money for support cars, a good business plan, a place to restore her and a place she can run and a source for cars who knows?
Of course, convincing the NMOT that this is a good idea is a hill to climb first.


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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:22 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:45 pm
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It seems that every year or so someone asks if this or that locomotive could be restored. Here are the basics that answer that question.

[1] Yes - anything can be “restored” if there is enough money, talent and time. Where is the money coming from, and not just for the restoration, but for long term protection? Generally, you will need far more than any initial estimate.

[2] But - how much of the original locomotive will actually be restored, or simply replaced? The Titanic could be “restored” if you had trillions of dollars, but probably only a few panels and other parts would actually be able to be used. What you would have is simply a reproduction, much like the steam locomotives at Golden Spike National Park. Is this the plan? Clearly know what is involved by doing a full inspection (inside and out).

[3] Whether you are able to truly restore the locomotive, or essentially have a reproduction, the next question is what are the plans for it. Was the restoration done to just preserve it, or was it done for operational purposes? Either way, what are the long-term storage and protection plans? What funding is there for this purpose?

[4] If the restoration is done for operating purposes, what are the plans? Are there operating agreements for a place to run? Is there equipment to run? What type of operating will take place (regular passenger operations, special passenger operations, photo freight operations, etc.)?

[5] What are the plans for staffing? Everyone wants to be the engineer, and many are happy to do some mechanical work, but what about accounting, car staffing, promotions and advertising, ticket sales, FRA reporting, etc.? Note the most successful operators as they will often tell you that these non-operating, behind the scene jobs are what allow the locomotive to operate.

[6] What are the plans for keeping the locomotive operating - insurance, inspections, fund raising, etc.?

[7] What are the plans for regulatory changes, leadership changes, etc? I have seen too many restorations be led by one person, and as soon as they move or pass away, the plans end. This includes contacts at railroads or government agencies, the person providing the cash, the main mechanical person, etc.

[8] This list can continue as almost every restoration has run into an issue they had to solve, and have stories about successes that can be learned from.

Why these points....there are hundreds of stories about locomotive restorations that have failed because of a lack of thorough planning. Some operated for a few years while others never got that far. On the other hand, there are lots of successful restorations because of good planning, and in a few cases enough cash and just plain stubbornness. Different goals have led to different plans, so when asking the question if a certain locomotive can be restored, answer some of these questions to see what is really meant by “restoration” and what is the purpose of the question.


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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:59 pm 
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Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
Ah, the age-old, "Why can't they run ____?" question.
Look, I'm a big SP fan myself and specifically drove to St Louis to see this engine when I was in Bloomington for a work several years ago.
That GS-6 has been there since the 50s and I think it's been out of doors the whole time (though partially under an overhead cover when I saw her). I don't recall reading much about her and have no idea what shape her running gear is in now.
If recent years have taught us anything:
1. Never assume something is going to steam forever
2. Never assume something is going to stay stuffed and mounted forever
Just like 4014 or 1309, there has be a 'need' (or a strong desire) by someone of means to run the thing and an agreement with the museum and the railroads (or a trucking company) getting it off the property to someone for restoration and running.

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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:19 pm 
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Location: Northwest Indiana
Years ago an NMOT staff member told me the 4460 has been considered for restoration to operating condition at least twice during its time at the museum, however, since the 4449 is already running the museum would rather focus any steam restoration efforts on something more unique. Steam restoration in general at NMOT is unlikely because there's no place to run anything unless Union Pacific allows NMOT to use their tracks.

However, the same NMOT staff member also told me that besides the damage done from the sandblasting, the locomotive is in fairly decent shape. I was inside of the cab during my last visit there and it looked like nobody had been inside since the day the locomotive was retired.

Thomas

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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:16 pm 
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Location: Shawinigan, Quebec, Canada
Why Sp4460?? Why another 4-8-4??

SP4449 running in 2022 with NW611 SPS700(maybe) UP844 MILW261 and soon ATSF2926 and 3751
Don't forget some project like 2100, 2102 and 576
Or
Cold but not dead restoration of CO614 GTW6325 and Cotton Belt 819

So why another 4-8-4??

Why not a 4-8-2 like NYC3001 or 2933??? Or Frisco 1522 and Great Northern 2507
Maybe a 4-4-2

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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
Another 4-8-4 wouldn't be my first choice, but the question focused on a specific locomotive. I'd personally like a CB&Q Hudson or one of the NYC Mohawks.
But nobody asked!

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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:23 am
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Location: Sheboygan County, Wisconsin
Just my 2 cents here, but a few years back, 4460 could have been a considered candidate
for restoration and operation at the Grand Canyon Ry. She would have been a really good fit there with her 73" drivers and t.e. a shade past 60,000 lbs.

I feel the same for the Frisco 1522 in the same location. Great machine with more than adequate weight on the drivers.


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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:35 pm 
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tom moungovan wrote:
I feel the same for the Frisco 1522 in the same location. Great machine with more than adequate weight on the drivers.

The first time I made it to the St Louis museum, they'd not long before dropped the fires on 1522 and she was on a track in the shop area, pretty close to where 4460 was (and I assume still is). It was so sad knowing you could fire her up right then but she wasn't likely to steam up again until her 15-yr time ran out.
It's been said plenty of times, but the smaller the loco, the more likely the operation would be. A 4-8-4 like this GS-6 could of course only run in a place with mainline style tracks, and there aren't many places to do that without Class 1 cooperation.
Yes, places like the Grand Canyon would work for something like that, but that'd take a great leap of faith to assume something like that even could happen.

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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:46 pm
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Location: St. Louis, MO
So as the 4460 is the only 4-8-4 in this collection, what would you swap it with to get the museum to consider a trade?

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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:34 pm 
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Ron Goldfeder wrote:
So as the 4460 is the only 4-8-4 in this collection, what would you swap it with to get the museum to consider a trade?
I can't think of anything that museum would rather have. It has to be the most comprehensive and eclectic collection in the US.
Seriously, I spend a few minutes thinking of what they'd rather have than many of the unique locomotives they have and nothing came up. For any other museum I might say, "maybe something running with a lot of flue time," but unless things have changed that I'm not aware of (which could easily be the case), they wouldn't have anywhere to run anything they'd swap for the 4460.
But someone pointed out earlier here that there are perhaps other locos that would have a much stronger general desire to see running again. N&W 2156 and NYC 2933 both come to mind.
As big a SP fan as I am, I'd much rather see either of those in steam before 4460...

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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:07 pm 

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Lee -

I seem to recall that, at one time, MofT gave some consideration to restoring the Katy 4-4-0 to operation with its later in-service looks rather than the "back-dated" attempt that the MKT gave the locomotive when it was donated. Not sure if there was any place to run the engine on their grounds but obviously, nothing ever came of that idea.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: is it even remotly possible to restore the SP 4460?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:34 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:46 pm
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Location: St. Louis, MO
The members of the Katy RR Historical Society have been working on a cosmetic restoration of the MKT 4-4-0 for some time now and made good progress. But there isn't really enough clear track to run anything larger than an 0-4-0T at the museum.

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