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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:27 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:16 am
Posts: 767
There is some roadbed grading between Chama and Espanola. The Chili Line survey used for many years was a resurvey of the route to reduce the earthwork for to the line due to it now being a branch. The Santa Fe Collection at Topeka includes the list of equipment they used in surveying the route between Albuquerque and Tucson. The railroads did a lot of survey work that never did see any construction beyond the newspaper column. In the case of the narrow gauge line west of the Front Range you have to look at the source of traffic that came over the line. The geographical challenges in the Colorado Plateau creates a funneling effect on a significant part of the East West traffic. In the end the mining was going to be the revenue source for the narrow gauge and the local communities were not of the size to support regauging the railroad.

If your ever board at the Grand Canyon just start a conversation about the ongoing railroad construction in the canyon and use features to show progress and watch people listen to you with great intrest and agree.

Robby Peartree


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:11 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2875
Earl Knoob wrote:
Kelly's point is correct. If it hadn't been for the pipe traffic materializing in the 1950's, the entire system would have been gone by the mid-1950's..


Exactly! Imagine this... ::Waves a magic wand, converts everything to standard gauge. Tracks, equipment, bridges and tunnels if needed. All of it ready to haul freight::

OK boys, what are we hauling? Some sheep and cattle? Some pipe? Maybe some ore? If it was a standard gauge operation, it likely still would have been up for abandonment.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:16 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:33 am
Posts: 187
Bobharbison wrote:
Earl Knoob wrote:
Kelly's point is correct. If it hadn't been for the pipe traffic materializing in the 1950's, the entire system would have been gone by the mid-1950's..


Exactly! Imagine this... ::Waves a magic wand, converts everything to standard gauge. Tracks, equipment, bridges and tunnels if needed. All of it ready to haul freight::

OK boys, what are we hauling? Some sheep and cattle? Some pipe? Maybe some ore? If it was a standard gauge operation, it likely still would have been up for abandonment.


Not only that, but standard gauged now the line doesn't need specific 3 footer equipment. All those pesky old Mikados and Consolidations can just go to the scrap line or shoved into a few lucky city parks, and we can run one GP9 or SD9 weekly on the "San Juan" branch until we abandon it!

Without steam, it would be interesting to speculate if the Durango and Silverton would have had the appeal to ever become an attraction. I know the current diesel trains running there are a success it seems, but it is after four decades of marketing and brand identity since being separated from the Rio Grande, along with the general build up of Durango into a tourist/ski town area. But imagining the Silverton Branch as a standard gauged GP9 hauled route in the 1950's instead of a narrow gauge steam one would have likely doomed the route then despite its scenic appeal. The line got lucky to tap into the Western genre association and creating a magnet for roundtripping Americans in the 1960's, and I don't think it could have succeed in that then without steam.

And there is now way Colorado and New Mexico would have found Cumbres Pass to be worth saving either had it not had steam operations into the late 60's either. A standard gauge branch being abandoned would not have stirred up the same waves as a narrow gauge steam line did by then.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:46 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 161
By the early 1900’s, the D&RG (and its sister railroad, WP) were in poor financial condition and stock and bond performance was seriously effecting both the railroad and investors. A New York investment company was trying to get the railroad back into good financial order and to improve the physical condition by paying off the bonds which they held. A common practice of the time was to have a well known railroad official write a comprehensive report outlying the current status and proposed improvements of a specific railroad. This official and his team would make a whirlwind tour of the railroad, inspecting the physical plant, talking to personnel and reviewing management operations.

This was done on the D&RG in by L.F. Loree, who was president of the Delaware & Hudson from 1907-1938. Mr. Loree and his team of experts conducted their tour of the D&RG sometime in 1917 and submitted their report, known as the “Loree Report” to the investment company on September 17, 1917.

The narrow gauge lines were discussed at length with an entire section of the 250 plus page report devoted to review and feasibility of standard gauging the narrow gauge as it existed at that time. Loree’s conclusion was that, “attention should be directed to their betterment along lines giving greatest promise of satisfaction to the public and profit to the company”. These lines of “greater promise” included the Alamosa-Durango, Salida to Montrose and Crested Butte Branch.

This report is a very good read and provided some real insight to the condition and operation of the D&RG at this time. I believe that copies of this report are still available for sale at the Colorado Railroad Museum.

Mike Ramsey


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:37 pm 

Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:22 am
Posts: 11
Surprised to see no mention of the Monarch Branch. It was built in the 1880s as narrow gauge and converted to standard gauge in 1956 and operated until early 1980s. 4.5% grades, a reverse loop and a set of switchbacks made for an interesting operation.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:24 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 161
cdaspit wrote:
Surprised to see no mention of the Monarch Branch. It was built in the 1880s as narrow gauge and converted to standard gauge in 1956 and operated until early 1980s. 4.5% grades, a reverse loop and a set of switchbacks made for an interesting operation.


Like the Crested Butte branch, the Monarch operation was tied primarily to CF&I and their needs at the steel mill in Pueblo. When CF&I shut down the coal mine in Crested Butte, that sealed the fate for the remaining 3rd Division from Salida to Gunnison. CF&I still needed the limestone from Monarch, and with all other narrow gauge operations removed out of Salida by 1955, standard gauging the Monarch Branch made sense. When CF&I shut down in the late 70's/early 80's, there was no longer any need for limestone and the branch was removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2875
xboxtravis7992 wrote:
Without steam, it would be interesting to speculate if the Durango and Silverton would have had the appeal to ever become an attraction. I know the current diesel trains running there are a success it seems, but it is after four decades of marketing and brand identity since being separated from the Rio Grande, along with the general build up of Durango into a tourist/ski town area.


It will take quite a while to see what impact the diesels have on that operation. Most of the general public has no idea they've started running diesels. Many passengers will show up fully expecting a steam train, no matter what the website says, or what it says on their reservation form, especially those who book bus tours etc.

How many of them will find the scenery alone is enough to make it worth the ride? Probably quite a few of them. How many won't be back since it's no longer steam? Hard to say... Mt Washington Cog Railway made the transition with success, or so it would appear, they'll likely do the same.


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