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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
After a few days of intentionally not commenting, I feel that I should explain my initial post.

The reason I posted it, as I said in the original post, is that it seems that people still seem to claim this type of thing isn't an issue.


NO.

That's not the problem.
You used a false example.

I don't think any rational, observant human being actually thinks that "sexism" doesn't exist.
What we disagree on is the severity of the problem, and how it relates to "railroad preservation." Is it "systemic" throughout rail preservation as you and others claim, or is it an annoyance that rears its ugly head only here and there with selected individuals or sites?

Further, in this particular instance, the only involvement of "rail preservation" is that some snapped a photo on the property of a heritage railway, and it was shared by the railroad's own social media wonks.
Is there anyone reprimanding the railroad's PR people for either sharing the group of photos, or for allowing those comments to stay? Were any of the comments by staff of the railroad, that we can tell?
Are you even claiming that the railroad having a FB page is "creating a safe space for a**holes"--which is about as close to any rational argument as one can make in this instance? Should they, and every other operation, shut down their social media presence lest it inadvertently "create" such a "safe space"?
*crickets*

As for the example of actual sexism that exerted his presence in the contrarian thread: Hell, I've made the case for his removal repeatedly, and not just for that abomination.


Last edited by Alexander D. Mitchell IV on Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:07 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1114
Location: B'more Maryland
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
After a few days of intentionally not commenting, I feel that I should explain my initial post.

The reason I posted it, as I said in the original post, is that it seems that people still seem to claim this type of thing isn't an issue.


NO.

That's not the problem.
You used a false example.

I don't think any rational, observant human being actually thinks that "sexism" doesn't exist.
What we disagree on is the severity of the problem, and how it relates to "railroad preservation." Is it "systemic" throughout rail preservation as you and others claim, or is it an annoyance that rears its ugly head only here and there with selected individuals or sites?

Further, in this particular instance, the only involvement of "rail preservation" is that some snapped a photo on the property of a heritage railway, and it was shared by the railroad's own social media wonks.
Is there anyone reprimanding the railroad's PR people for either sharing the group of photos, or for allowing those comments to stay? Were any of the comments by staff of the railroad, that we can tell?
Are you even claiming that the railroad having a FB page is "creating a safe space for assholes"--which is about as close to any rational argument as one can make in this instance? Should they, and every other operation, shut down their social media presence lest it inadvertently "create" such a "safe space"?
*crickets*


Would you expect to see that same behavior on an art museum's Facebook page?

The C&T Facebook page is also consumed by more "train people" than non train people. While the people posting may not be representative of the C&TS, they, sadly, are representative of many of the "train people" I know and interact with.

The issue is that, in the railroad preservation hobby, people have tolerated this type of behavior for long enough that people feel comfortable performing it. People feel safe behaving like that because they do not expect consequences.

THAT is what needs addressing (well, along with all the other examples of misogyny that I pointed out in the responses).

_________________
If you fear the future you won't have one.
The past was the worst.


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 2329
Location: The Atlantic Coast Line
Quote:
Would you expect to see that same behavior on an art museum's Facebook page?


Attachment:
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Meanwhile RyPN slowly drifts off into irrelevancy as several have noted in other threads.

Perhaps its time for a new sub-message board called "Echo Chamber" where topics such as this current thread can be moved.

Steps off soap box.

Wesley


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:27 am
Posts: 132
You think the mods are bad here you're sadly mistaken. I moderate for my local reef club and several other places in my free time. However there was one site I was banned on why. I was just friends with the people that exposed another mod as something so bad we actually had to get Law Enforcement involved for the sake of a minor child. The person involved was charged with crimes against a minor. However his friends on that board had all his so called enemies banned from the board including 90 percent of the mods of the site. Most of us where banned for the next 900 years. Why that long well that was the prison sentence the guy got and therefore the remaining mods as a joke banned us until this guy's suspected parole day.


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
"If you, or your organization, is creating a "safe space for assholes", you are going to have a hard time attracting volunteers, positive attention, funding, support, and ultimately, success."

Complains about coarse and crude behavior.

Uses profanity.

Twice.

From the Interchange Guidelines.

No profanity. There will be zero tolerance for this, and posts containing profanity will be deleted on sight.


https://www.amazon.com/Length-Standing- ... NrPXRydWU=


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:01 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:33 pm
Posts: 125
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:

Would you expect to see that same behavior on an art museum's Facebook page?

The C&T Facebook page is also consumed by more "train people" than non train people. While the people posting may not be representative of the C&TS, they, sadly, are representative of many of the "train people" I know and interact with.

The issue is that, in the railroad preservation hobby, people have tolerated this type of behavior for long enough that people feel comfortable performing it. People feel safe behaving like that because they do not expect consequences.

THAT is what needs addressing (well, along with all the other examples of misogyny that I pointed out in the responses).


Ed, Why don't you call out the piggish comments personally on the D&SNG Facebook page? You want to be the catalyst that addresses the problem of obscene comments on Facebook, yet I don't see any comments from you on that particular photo. You should apply for a HR job in a services industry, such as contruction, railroad, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:27 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Would you expect to see that same behavior on an art museum's Facebook page?


If an "art museum's" FB page reposted such a set of visitor's photos with similar attire--say, as photos of an outdoor art festival event they were having--then, YES.

Unless we are somehow arguing that "art museums" and their social media only interest and attract the snobbish, prim-and-proper elite, whereas for-profit rail operations (which is what we're discussing here, not a state-run museum or nonprofit) seem to attract a more diverse audience more representative of "the real world."
Should we therefore strive to be even more elitist and exclusionary than we are already accused of being?

For the record, I would see some similar photography shared to a local zoo's social media during and after their highly popular "Brew at the Zoo" festivals, with the similar occasional remarks on some females' "attributes" and/or attire (young people dressed for a fun outdoor event in warm/hot weather--who'd have thought it?).
People routinely questioned the "need" for said zoo (and others) to hold a not-so-family-friendly event centered around beer (and/or wine at other events/zoos), with the patrons occasionally staggering to taxis/Ubers/Lyfts. Meanwhile, that event was, and remains, the zoo in question's biggest annual fundraiser, taking in money we mostly only dream of.

Do these zoos therefore suffer from "systemic sexism"? Or "chronic alcoholism"?

Similar reactions are showing up to many rail museums' "Rails & Ales" beer-sampling events in the USA--some people questioning ANY booze anywhere near a rail environment, while the money rolls in as successfully as any "Thomas" event.

Now, for the record, I *did* say that we could argue the D&SNG social media jockeys could/should have been more active in deleting potentially offensive commentary to that specific post. But that's to take up with them--not use to slander the entire rail heritage/preservation field.

Hey, Ed, you're in Baltimore.
If they ever hold The Preakness Stakes again at Pimlico or elsewhere, let's go over all the "selfies" and other social media photos posted from there................ especially after some rainfall....... This is that "kings' sport" of horse racing, after all............


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
"Would you expect to see that same behavior on an art museum's Facebook page?"

Why would you consider an art museum to be some sort of aspirational standard?

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/conten ... literally/

Although it is hard to argue with that Katsu fellow if he is attempting to channel Andy Warhol's "the medium is the message".


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:51 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 2279
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
If you, or your organization, is creating a "safe space for assholes", you are going to have a hard time attracting volunteers, positive attention, funding, support, and ultimately, success.

You've just identified the essence of facebook, in fact they should use that as their marketing slogan: facebook: a safe space for a$sholes. There is an old saying in advertising: there is no such thing as bad publicity, and I'm sure Zuckerburg believes in it 100%. I have left most of the railroad-oriented facebook public groups I naively signed up for after recognizing the insidious nature of the lack of moderation. A mob dynamic always seems to develop in an unmoderated forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
Posts: 2576
Location: Faulkland, Delaware
The moderators here are all volunteer and all have other things to do besides reading each and every post. I have a full-time job, put many hours into preservation, and then more time to RYPN. We all have times when we can do more and times when the other moderators pick up the slack.

A lot of good information passes through our message board and has helped with many projects. If you want to have a debate or grind an axe go somewhere else. The people who are making things happen don't have time for that nonsense.

From the guidelines post.

Focus: The INTERCHANGE is a moderated discussion board for exchanging relevant, fact-based, information about railroad history, the crafts of research and authorship, the operation of railroad museums, railroad history groups, tourist railroads, and other related organizations.

All kinds of inquiries are welcome here from "how do I change the oil in a diesel locomotive?" to "what can my organization do to build its membership?" Who knows, maybe somebody shares your interest, or has that key bit of information that will fit your research together. Students are encouraged to ask questions relating to their research for class projects.

Railroad history and historic preservation offers a number of interesting challenges and great rewards, and our purpose here is to use the power of the Internet to open new channels of communication between railroad heritage organizations of all sizes from all across North America to help further "the cause."

Tom Gears
Moderator


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:58 pm
Posts: 38
Mr. Gears, thank you and well put. As I've said before, I'd love it if we could go back to getting updates from Strasburg, updates on the "train that wouldn't die," progress on the J&L, new projects in Maine, and other topics along those lines. At this point, focusing on some positives in railway preservation might do us all some good.

If the negative banter is necessary for the greater good of railway preservation, then I suggest allowing it once a year for a twelve hour period... we could call it the RYPN Purge. This would allow folks to get it out of their systems in one concentrated burst. After the siren sounds, indicating the conclusion annual RYPN Purge, then we could go back to discussing the afore mentioned topics.


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:15 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
murph wrote:
If the negative banter is necessary for the greater good of railway preservation, then I suggest allowing it once a year for a twelve hour period... we could call it the RYPN Purge. This would allow folks to get it out of their systems in one concentrated burst. After the siren sounds, indicating the conclusion annual RYPN Purge, then we could go back to discussing the afore mentioned topics.


"Since last year, the entire Indiana Transportation Museum self-imploded, with plenty of equipment scrapped--but we couldn't discuss it hear because it was considered 'negative banter' by 'nattering nabobs of negativity,' and discussion was swiftly shut down before anyone could discuss rescuing anything..........."


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:08 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
You've just identified the essence of facebook, in fact they should use that as their marketing slogan:

Facebook: It's free and it always will be.

Milton Friedman: There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Paul Krugman:

“The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law’–which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants–becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s.”


You either understand that if the "service" is free, you are the product or you do not. Most do not.


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:26 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 2279
superheater wrote:
Paul Krugman:

“The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law’–which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants–becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s.”
.


That was from an article in the late nineties in which Krugman was asked to predict what we would think of the 2000s in 2098, and was encouraged to make wild predictions. Using that quote out of context is sort of like the notorious example of the terrible movie that used the quote from the late Roger Ebert, that "whatever you do don't see this movie!" in a poster that said "Roger Ebert raves, '...see this movie!' " It is completely misleading.

Your posts are tedious.


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:46 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
But not tedious enough that you ignore them, apparently. I'm not really sure what your screed about Facebook and Zuckerberg has to do with railroad preservation, even peripherally- even if I confess I largely share your opinions in that regard.

He made the quote in 1998, about 2005. I think most people in 1998 knew not to underestimate the internet. Pets.com failed because it was too early, not an answer in search of a question. Hence now we have Chewy.com

There's a reason the inestimable Nassim Taleb coined the phrase "IYI" (Intellectual, yet idiot).

I decided to include this prognostication as a follow up to showing that early predictions about the underwhelming internet have been woefully wrong. EVERYTHING is being subsumed into the matrix. Look how many electrons are spilled here about content, deportment, whether this or that is is relevant.

What people don't understand is the difference between data and information.

Data is assertions about facts and circumstances; information is data curated, summarized and verified to be actionable.

The internet is very good at the instantaneous production and transmission of the former and very poor at the other, because data can be produced and transmitted in petabytes instantaneously, but information requires human judgement and we don't have that sort of capacity to review data or assess credibility.

Hence some day, I suspect the GPS now showing you your speed will report your speed to the local constabulary, but it won't be able to conduct a tribunal with due process.

I think it's more tedious to level ad hominems about cryptic agendas than to attempt to offer a perspective about why the incessant frustrations are futile from a personal perspective.

In short, people were mildly thirsty and now we're drinking from firehoses. Accept it and move on.

"Every drop complains it is not part of the flood".


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