I came across an article (blog post?) from Trains magazine titled, "Why does Steamtown seem to never quite finish restoring a steam engine?" http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/740/p/250122/2791781.aspx The headline itself is sobering, and illustrates why nothing short of outside involvement will fix the situation in Scranton. Sure, BLW 26 may be the lone exception, but it's almost embarrassing that so many years and so many dollars have produced so very little.

I can honestly only see one successful path forward:

1) The NPS should continue to care for the static exhibits and roundhouse.

2) A private group should be contracted to operate the shop space. The only one I can think of off the top of my head would be AOS; in this case call it a "satellite campus," where a skilled apprenticeship program would enable regular restoration work AND allow visitors to watch steam engine maintenance/repair in real time.

3) A private group should be contracted to operate excursions beyond the yard limits. Keeping ticket prices low is important and the only way you will achieve that is by contracting operations rather than just allowing an independent group access to the park.

Small steam, such as BLW 26, can stay under control of the NPS and be used for demonstration purposes within yard limits, but maintenance and repair should be contracted through the private vendor in #2.

We are coming up on the 40th anniversary of the park. It's time for a change.

I think what aggravates me the most is the goodwill that has been wasted on this false promise of a park over the years. They had no problem letting senior citizens volunteer their time, standing in the snow selling hot chocolate and M&Ms, all to generate a few dollars to help the "poor government" who couldn't afford to fix a steam engine (3713). Now they don't even bother to run excursions.

2) A private group should be contracted to operate the shop space. The only one I can think of off the top of my head would be AOS; in this case call it a "satellite campus," where a skilled apprenticeship program would enable regular restoration work AND allow visitors to watch steam engine maintenance/repair in real time.

3) A private group should be contracted to operate excursions beyond the yard limits. Keeping ticket prices low is important and the only way you will achieve that is by contracting operations rather than just allowing an independent group access to the park.


Now here's another problem:


For the most part, other than the volunteer corps, Steamtown has not had great luck with private groups.

1.) The Steamtown Volunteer Organization, by design it's B of D required representation from all of the divisions where volunteers were active, order to assure that all volunteers had representation and it was both a Director's Order 7 ((Active Volunteer) and Director's Order 32 (fundraising) designations. Unfortunately, there wasn't always a lot of people in each division and some had rather lacking business acumen. It didn't help that Superintendent Gess brought forth funding requests like radio advertising on a station without relevant data.

One day, the President resigned complete with a rather curt statement to the late former Superintendent Gess. The Vice President, who expected to play the role of John Nance Garner to FDR found himself at the helm of chaos. A more orderly departure of the Secretary resulted in the need to fill that position. A local computer science professor who volunteered in I believe Curatorial, orchestrated a coup against the reluctant President and another officer, moving for impeachment against the President on baseless charges and prevailed with a supermajority vote that may have been insufficient (the question was whether removal required a majority or in excess of that number). I wish I had the old By-laws, but that was the days before scanning and terabyte hard drives.

Having successfully completed that overthrow, the mutineer set his sights on Gess and began some sort of campaign. My understanding is that the Region Office became involved and the net result was the dissolution of the SVA.

2.) The Steamtown Museum Association. Organized as the SVA's successor, it was supposed to be an NPS 32 group only, having interested directors and officers, principally if not exclusively public minded citizens with business savvy and connections. It was ultimately given the "death penalty" by the IRS for failing to file a 990 three years running, and dissolved, with assets now held by the Scranton Area Foundation who distributes them through a grant program.

https://safdn.org/grant-opportunity-fro ... tion-fund/

3.) Valley Locomotive Restorations. This was a group that was supposed to raise funds and effect an operating restoration of NKP 759. I remember seeing individuals claiming to be associated with the group about the shop, with an abrupt disappearance. I recall hearing that they hadn't raised a dime or turned a wrench, but were attempting to facilitate a meeting with 765 in Ohio. That was crew room scuttlebutt, I cannot attest to the veracity of that statement.

4.) The Partnership with the University of Scranton, aka The Steamtown Institute.

It was headed by a fellow whose first name I think was Ray who came from The National Railroad Museum and was designed I think to utilize students from Da' U for tasks like ticket sales. As I recall they wore special red shirts and were called "red shirts". The arrangement didn't last long and I think Ray ended up briefly at Cal State, and as far as I know dropped off the radar, preservation wise.

5.) I believe the K-4 issues are thoroughly documented in older threads. I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie there-and hope for the best since there's some heavyweight respectables involved there now.

6.) DLW 565. I have heard so many conflicting reports about that project that I think the only way to get some semblance of the truth would be to file a FOIA request, however I don't know if any documentation is permanent.

While there are a great many things I do not understand about the NPS' methods and practices; I do understand their reluctance to become entangled with groups they don't obtain and maintain control over-in many places-that's easy. It's a little more difficult when you have operating chattel to differ in opinion about regarding use or significance.

We all need to come to accept that Steamtown is a typical gummit operation and efficiency, nimbleness and catering to what the public wants and is willing to pay for are not part of its DNA, now nor ever.

It was designed as an economic stimulus mechanism for a very depressed town/region with a bankrupted train collection as a conveniently available vehicle.

It has served its designed for purpose well.

It has clearly demonstrated to us all that it will never be a place that restores/operates and showcases operating steam in any meaningful way. The recent abandonment of the 3713 project is just the latest sad chapter in that 25 year reality.

Let's be grateful that we're blessed with the Strasburgs, R&N's, NH&I's and others that do showcase live steam the way it should be,.... and not let the sad place in Scranton detract from enjoying those operations.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

My terminology could be better. By private group I am advocating for a professional vendor (either one for the shop and one for excursions, or one entity for both) that should be held to specific standards outlined in the work contract. I'm sure the feds have a term for that.

co614..I think you came of age before Rush..

but "sadder still to watch it die, then never to have known it".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j0AyWbAbrc

Sup - Thanks for the great summary one through six of the groups that have attempted to work with the Park Service at STEA. I believe the list should have gone to seven - you omitted the Ironhorse Society. My recollection is that a while back (2015?) you posted several very useful items on how to start a non-profit using your experience as one of the founders of Ironhorse as a template for others. Anyway, their website is a placeholder and they have not posted to their FB since September 30, 2020. So do they make the "not great luck" list or is their still some life there?

With all due respect, the failure of these "partnerships" has much more to do with the Park Service lack of mindset than "great luck". A long time ago when I stepped into the STEA batters' box and went down swinging, the Park Service had an extremely useful and uncharacteristically frank guide on their website on becoming a partner. It included the text of the retirement speech of the president of a "Friends of" group that supported one of the more successful sites out west. Unfortunately, I did not save it and when the Park service revamped their website maybe 8(?) years ago it disappeared. I can not recall the organization, Park, or the gentleman's name.

In summary, he discussed what it takes to create a successful Friends organization - one that could be impactful to the quality of the interpretive experience at the site, raise the profile of the site in the community, and garner the support of the community. I do not recall the analogy he used but to me it was as if he was speaking of a bad but very profitable marriage. He spoke of constant push back by the Park Service and an over controlling approach that to me bordered on bullying. He basically said the Park Service will try to push you around and that any talk of an equal partnership was basically lip service. It was a stark warning of what to expect in trying to partner with the Park Service and I was shocked that it lasted on their website as long as it did. My unfortunate experience was that his advice was spot on and his insight incredibly prescient.

The government/non-profit "Friends of" model has been implemented successfully at state transportation/rail museums. It is appalling and a monument to the ineptitude of Park Service management (an oxymoron) that this has repeatedly failed at STEA. Some of the factors that have contributed to a loss of traction in Scranton are not really the fault of the Park Service. The whole concept was ill-conceived, poorly designed, and incompetently executed from the beginning. The failure of the Park Service to foster a true equal partnership with a non-profit is what has sealed the site's fate of always being a "what if" sort of place and has resulted in the failed stewardship of many of the artifacts at the site.

"Sup - Thanks for the great summary one through six of the groups that have attempted to work with the Park Service at STEA. I believe the list should have gone to seven - you omitted the Ironhorse Society. My recollection is that a while back (2015?) you posted several very useful items on how to start a non-profit using your experience as one of the founders of Ironhorse as a template for others. Anyway, their website is a placeholder and they have not posted to their FB since September 30, 2020. So do they make the "not great luck" list or is their still some life there?"

I honestly don't know. My understanding is they will, courtesy of generous gift made for a specific purpose be funding a project that will be incredibly useful, but let's just say it's not going to make co614 happy.

The irony is that five years ago in September, I was completely convinced that we were going to be part of a new volunteer driven future, because although our rulers like to spend money, they like to spend it where it buys votes and National Parks just don't have a big enough constituency footprint.

I had completed the 1023 for IHS and received a call from a revenue agent asking about a "dissolution clause", which for the uninitiated is a requirement of §501(c)(3) that should an organization be dissolved, assets are distributed to similar tax exempt entity. We did not include it in our Articles because Pennsylvania has a requirement that in the event of a dissolution, the PA Orphan's Court must approve the distribution of assets. I had checked the box "relies on state law", but the agent said "Pennsylvania isn't on the list" and I let the rest of the board know we had two options: One, send in copies of the relevant law-and since I'm not a lawyer, it's possible I misread it, or two-spend the 70 bucks and amend the articles which would make them happy. Filing is a breeze and we opted to spend the 70 bucks. Thirty days later, on the day our real motivating force died, we had a letter in hand and a need for a new Director and VP.

In the beginning, Superintendent Conway (SC) was extremely supportive of a new friends group. She brought in a consultant from La Salle University-who has a group that assists in the formation and operation of tax exempts, and met with us after hours.

https://www.lasallenonprofitcenter.org

The beginning of my concerns that led to my departure was when an off-handed comment SC made gave me the indication that we were going to be asked to write checks for projects that the Park Service presented with little question. (I understand they don't want the tail wagging the dog). We had extensive conversations about "targets of opportunity"-one hypothetical example being what if the former DL&W 409 became available-would there be a possibility of allowing us acquiring it. In the end I though we convinced her that allowing some projects of volunteer interest would create a more engaged enterprise.

The second thing was the 113 saga. We worked out, with technical advice from knowledgeable shop personnel an idea that the engine should be brought in not as a hot display, but to run Moscow (and perhaps) Tobyhanna excursions. It wasn't an accident that I used this board to inquire about a formula to estimate horsepower for the 2317 in 2015.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38544&hilit=horsepower


The idea came about when Bob Kimmel and I realized Conway Scenic used their 0-6-0 for excursions, and it was less powerful (36K TE vs 46K TE for 113). Bob even brought a DVD of 113 pulling a 2000 ton freight to show that 113 was a completely different beast than 26. We knew there wasn't unanimous support, but the conversations dragged on until there was a long period of no response. A reminder to provide all of the people involved in the effort some sort of update or a thank you but letter went unheeded.

The third thing is when SC made a comment about a revised and extended timeline to bring about some improvement, I immediately sensed a search for the exit. I informed the rest of the board of my expectation, and suggested planning for her departure, I was unfortunately delivering unwelcome news. It came at the time that my Dad's health was really starting to fail and I realized I was already spending several hundred hours on annually Steamtown and needed to think about family obligations.

Ultimately these things caused me to resign. With no desire to be a stalking ex, I have rarely discussed the Society or its activities. Until now, I haven't discussed my departure publicly.

Other than the Board Member that shared an Oktoberfest dinner with me and my wife of the weekend (Prost!), I don't know who is a part of the Board anymore. I see that one of the other board members is now involved in another NEPA restoration group. Of the original founders, one passed away, two resigned and the status of the other is unknown.

I assume that the group still exists, but haven't been able to do much since the end of operations in 2019. They did run some Santa trains that year.

My guess is that the individual that used to do the web stuff has left-because that is a rather spartan footprint.

My pessimism about the future is that a certain door has closed. There was a time up until five years ago where the inordinate number of employees clustered at or near a short retirement span could, with the 26 running help train a group who would take over.

Since there hasn't been anything running since 2019, nobody can be really trained on day to day maintenance. In two years at least three more shop employees are going to hit age/service requirements and nobody who remembers the days when 26, 2317 and 3254 were cooking in the roundhouse will be there.

Is there a list available of the locomotives in Steamtown's collection? Also, is there a list of the locos rusting outside. What are the plans for these artifacts?

Jim Boyd's Morning Sun Book, "Steamtown in Color" from 2011 gives a nice synopsis of motive power from the Steamtown Foundation days through the current Park Service ownership. It's a good place to start as it covers the equipment that has been removed from the collection over the years. "Steam Over Scranton - The Locomotives of Steamtown", by Gordon Chappell was published in 1991 by the Dept. of Interior/NPS. This was the original survey of the locomotives performed by the Park Service and is available here:

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/steamtown/shs1.htm

I'm sure there are plenty of other web-based resources.

The document trail which explains the status of the artifacts on the site is as follows:

1. NPS Accession Receiving Report 1 dated March 21, 1989 lists "10 Locomotives, 18 passenger cars, 15 other pieces of rolling stock, 3 vehicles, assorted yard equipment and operational items" in "various conditions; poor to fair" which, combined with hte object in Accession Report 2 "form the basis for the collection of Steamtown NHS". There is an itemized four-page "List of Objects" that is part of this document.
2. As I have said, there are bits and pieces all over the place, as it was after the Foundation schlepped everything down from VT. These were conveyed en masse by John Luciani, the Vice-Chairman of the Foundation, in a correspondence dated August 25, 1989.

So from the inception of the historic site until 2001, everything except the buildings was classified as museum property, was part of the museum collection, and was the responsibility of the Curator. Shortly after he arrived, the Park Historian impressed upon the Curator and the Superintendent that the rolling stock as listed in Accession Reports 1 and 2 should be removed from the museum property system/collection such that they are no longer part of the collection and be reclassified as structures in the Park Service system.

3. Memorandum from Curator dated March 7, 2001 recommending "Removal of Non-Museum Property from Steamtown NHS Museum Accession 1 and 2. This included a list of 43 items from Accession Report 1.
4. This was approved by the Superintendent on March 7, 2001.

What this all means is that these items of rolling stock were entered into the Park Service system as Classified Structures and the structures on the site are under the purview of the Park Historian. They are not part of the museum collection so the rules of deaccessioning do not apply because they were already deaccessioned in 2001.

As with any heavily rule-based organization, it is my limited experience that an appreciable number (not all) of the people within the system expect those not in the organization to be up to speed on the nuances of the system and do not have much affinity for explaining it. So I hope this brief history lesson has been helpful to you.

Have never made it to Scranton, but would like to visit. Attended at least two of the fall weekend events at Bellow's Falls. Somewhere, I have slides I took of the CPR 4-4-4, nicely painted and posed on the turntable with steam running to it -- thanks to a Jim Boyd night photo clinic. That artifact seems to have suffered badly in Scranton.
Bellows Falls was a great visit for a Canadian -- four CPR Pacifics in steam one year.
The plight of Steamtown was predictable. Government-run institutions eventually become bloated with administrative staff, and, beyond never-ending bloody meetings -- we need another meeting to set the times for tomorrow's meeting -- less and less actually gets done.
There is often an us vs. them relationship between professional staff and volunteers.
There is a good case to be made for these public collections being held for future generations. From past experience with government institutions, one learns to temper one's enthusiasm.

Paraphrasing Mark Twain: "Everybody complains about Steamtown, but nobody does anything about it".

Perhaps the best plan for now is to get each of the neglected locomotive, those sitting on the rip track (CNR 47, 3377, MEC 519, CPR 2929, and others) under a roof and at least scraped and painted? Those locomotives indoors but with deferred repairs, placed on the "to-do" list until a miracle in administration, funding, and administration takes place.
I can see no other option at this time.

This is a good idea Richard, but besides those mentioned there are quite a few others I can think of:

Lowville and Beaver River 1923
NKP # 44
the Brooks-Scanlon 2-6-2 (can't remember the number offhand)
N & St. L 210
Meadow River Lumber Shay # 1

That's 9 already and we may be forgetting something. Not sure of the current status of Rahway Valley 15 now. Where could they theoretically store almost 10 locomotives?

John

I do not believe that the wonderfully insightful Mark Twain would have proffered such a shallow analysis of the situation. With all due respect for your work in ME, at least two of the posters to this thread have at least a couple of thousand hours in volunteering at STEA or on STEA-related projects. To infer that they are armchair preservationists and to characterize many of these largely factual posts as "complaining" does them a disservice.

Most, if not all of the ten or so locomotives you refer to are oozing asbestos through blistered sheet metal. The design of the site did not allow for sufficient covered space and so "getting them under a roof" even for a scrape and paint would entail putting restored or recently out of service equipment out in the elements for an appreciable amount of time. This would merely accelerate the deterioration of these previously restored pieces.

As I have posted previously, the "Paint and Park" approach was suggested by the Historian many years ago. It was a good idea then but its utility has expired. To meet the preservation standards, each artifact would have to be thoroughly documented prior to any work. This includes obtaining multiple paint and lettering samples. So this is no simple scrape and paint as your post appears to suggest.

The best option is to relieve the Park Service of the burden of stewardship for this equipment on the rail preservation equivalent of the Island of Misfit Toys by offering a viable alternative home for as many of them as possible. As you would say - It is time to get them out of the park.

rem1028 - My recollection is that RV 15 was abated and is in pretty decent cosmetic shape. I have not been up there in a long time but it was stored in the shop for a while years ago. Hopefully, someone with a more recent presence at the site can provide more up-to-date information.

Brooks-Scanlon 146