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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:42 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
parktrains wrote:
As the tubes were going in the volunteers very quickly discovered that the hole pattern in the rear tube sheet and the front tube sheet didn't match very well. A count between the two sheets was done twice and it was found that the front tube sheet actually had 10 more holes than the rear sheet. This was something done by the contractor previous to Wasatch.


Who was the previous contractor?

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:01 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:24 pm
Posts: 75
I remember reading it was Scott Lindsey of Steam Operations Corporation. Maybe someone from Sterns can let us know why he was removed and Wasatch was brought in? Did Steam Operations do any of that staybolt work?

I have seen their work and would not expect that from Steam Operations.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:13 am 

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Location: Near Boston
Looks like a job done by Benson Mountain Boiler, and these guys have code stamps.
I used think that code stamps guarantied quality work.
Wrong again!


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:58 am 

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Seeing this just further confirms my gut feeling that its only a matter of when, not if, we have another Gettysburg or worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:49 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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Does that poor quality work in the photos pass inspection? Is it a code violation? Was the work discovered and did it thus disqualify the locomotive from operation?


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2875
Ron Travis wrote:
Does that poor quality work in the photos pass inspection? Is it a code violation? Was the work discovered and did it thus disqualify the locomotive from operation?


You'll find the answers if you go through and read all of the comments.

Short version - Those photos were taken by the FRA boiler inspector. Since he has the knowledge required to perform his job, he did note a few things (cough) that might not exactly be up to FRA requirements.

It is my understanding that this inspection, and the resulting "You're joking, right?" response from the FRA inspector played a large role in the decision to engage in a lawsuit regarding the work.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:16 am
Posts: 767
Hi All

It is easy to currently look at the K&T 14 situation and blame a few individuals. But unfortunately, it is not that easy if we truly look at the issues that lead to this. First, steam locomotives and railroading have a heavy technical/engineering issues in its basic system layout. The results of operating a railroad have social human impacts including economic. In this very thread you see people discounting book learning and college educations for those who have field and practical experience. When someone raises a concern on this discussion board the response is so what is your resume on what you have done? To my knowledge there was not a need for a resume to post here and furthermore it was not an engineer who did this poor work. Just because you worked on a steam locomotive does not make you an expert anymore than having a driver’s license makes you a good driver or spell check a good speller.

Second is oversite, today too many people do not even understand the basic needs of good locomotive maintenance. They depend upon their “steam experts” in this area. The most classic example of this was the C&TS commission when the chair stated that they hired a firm because they showed up in Antonito! This same firm at a commission meeting announced (I was in attendance) that they had to go to South Africa to study water treatment. This same firm latter missed in their inspections spider cracking that was so bad in the firebox side sheets of one locomotive that they leaked in a hydro. A future commissioner called the new 49 CFR part 230 an unfunded mandate. The lack of those in leadership of our organizations taking the time to understanding the basic scope and process of the work to be done is opening up the opportunity for those who do not want to do quality work.

The next issue is the hero worship. This pass given to people who work on my favorite locomotive is very damaging. This is usually mixed with what photograph do I need to recreate next. Little thought is given to the persons ability or competence only that were taking a ride or taking photos. The emotional drive clouds good judgement as to what is going on. Did we get into a magazine or did my picture make this magazine or website? Further if you look at the railfan publications the knowledge of railroading is diminished and more and more false information is taken as truth.

Finally, the worst issue is the growing lack of knowledge of the experts themselves. This is a function of several things. One is education, the days of steam saw people with various backgrounds develop specific skills to do specific tasks on a locomotive. Today low pay shop employees are doing all sorts of tasks on a locomotive and the level of expertise on any subject is not at the level today that it was in the old shop complexes during the days of steam. Today finding a people with the skills that tourist railroads are looking for is difficult. The new college minor on Tourist Railroading does not even address technical issues but it does address railroads in movies. Then there is the pay or lack of that many employees face. Even before covid-19 the seasonal work of many lines meant having either other seasonal jobs or going on unemployment. Many of these operations occur in places where the cost of living is high so it makes making ends meet even more difficult. Complicate that if they have a spouse who needs a job to help make ends meet or kids who need a good education as many of these areas do not have the best schools and it makes getting good people even more difficult. To get better people there needs to be a better compensation at many properties.

So what is the solution? There is no simple solution. First it is going to take some self-reflection. Am I being objective and ethical about what I do and propose? Until one begins to address the limitations of one self they can not begin to truly help others. When working on SP 3420 and later at other operations I always struggled to gain technical data for a variety of reasons. To do much of this work correctly you need to understand both the theoretical and practical as possible. Just because something like the math or science is beyond your current education level does not mean that it does not have and impact on the situation at hand. Does the material I have cover the task at hand or do I need to find more material? What sources do I need? In some cases what one RR did is not what another RR did. If I am preserving an SP locomotive why am I using a Pennsylvania RR Standard or worse yet an eastern European standard that was designed for a different maintenance schedule than I want to employ. When looking at technology it is important to understand the environment both political and economical that it was employed.

In the days of steam a lot of technical data that was readily available is more difficult to find. There needs to be an effort to bring this information to those in the business today. This means we need to work not only with archives more but once material is found publish it in a way that many people from many generations can find it. To that end in late January I had scanned a book of AAR standard from 1940 mechanical standards. Matt Austin has been kind enough to put them on the web. You can find the 383 pages here:
http://hsengco.com/aar/AAR-Specs.pdf.

As other material I have is scanned I will make it available. I hope others do the same. Not educating others because we fear that they may eventually know more than we do is incredibly short sighted. We also need to think objectively about when it was written. I recently was trying to study the standardization of driving wheel diameters and the logic behind it when I came across a discussion about eliminating water glasses on steam locomotives because they believed that tri cocks were more accurate. The later studies buy Perdue University proved this wrong. But I guess for some on this board that this research is theoretical and not real world even when they had test plant to test actual locomotives at the college. This evolution of thought over the years is also interesting to study.

Finally, we need to be able to call out bad ideas and dangerous people. Look at the push for fillet welded stay bolts on this site. Notice the person most actively pushing them does not understand the corrosion issues with the design. Others do not understand the thinning of the boiler shell at the connection to the staybolt because of the gap needed between the boiler sheet and the bolt. Yes the full penetrated welded bolt takes more time and skill but in the end a poorly done full penetration welded staybolt is safer than these poorly welded fillet welded staybolts pictured.

We have to do a better job of understanding the technology of the steam locomotive and doing oversite of those who are entrusted to work on our locomotives.

Robby Peartree


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:41 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:03 pm
Posts: 182
Location: Pennsylvania
I wonder if it makes sense for steam operators to form some kind of official body such as NORAC that has a standardized set of general maintenance practices and requirements separate from CFR 49 part 230. An group like this could create a "blacklist" of certain contractors who are known to produce questionable work while at the same time, maintain a list of reputable contractors.

The idea of creating a contractor "blacklist" may sound a bit harsh, if not draconian, but when it comes to safety I feel nothing is too extreme.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1899
Location: Youngstown, OH
The best disinfectant is sunlight, and the thing that will help keep contractors on their toes are forums such as this where these issues can be discussed freely. The people who are "plugged in" to the steam locomotive grapevine already know what the reputations of the various steam locomotive experts are, but the problem is in the outsiders who have a locomotive that they wish to restore but not the broad base of knowledge or the connections in the industry. So they hire one expert to do the job and trust only that person's judgement because they do not have any independent knowledge of steam locomotives. This too can be dangerous.

I am all in favor of education and dissemination of information regarding the proper care and maintenance of steam locomotives. In trying to find the niche for the J&L Narrow Gauge, we have toyed with the idea of offering multi day training courses in steam locomotive operation and maintenance. We held a "steam school" here a few years ago which was well received and I am thinking of expanding on that in the future. Anything that can be done to help perpetuate knowledge would be a good thing I would think

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:54 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:45 pm
Posts: 300
If you look at the steam tractor groups across the country, many states have their own standards, and some groups hold annual workshops to help their members stay current on the standards and practices. This needs to be a practice in the railroad industry.

In the railroad industry, if you inspect track, no matter your skill, each individual railroad must qualify you to inspect their track. There is no such thing as a universal track inspector (unless you are certified as an FRA inspector). This also applies to track contractors - each railroad must qualify them through 49 CFR Part 213.7. The same applies to those doing track work, either employees or contractors. If you supervise the work, you must be qualified. I teach workshops on track inspection, and have for almost 30 years now, but I still have to go through the process with each railroad that wants to have me inspect their track.

To do the 213.7 qualification, there must be a display of experience and knowledge. Testing and retesting is highly encouraged. It would make sense that the same would apply to any steam locomotive work. However, this leads to the issue of the owner or railroad knowing enough about steam to actually do the qualifications. The idea of a professional group working with railroads has merit, much like RPCA works with car inspectors and other inspections related to passenger cars and locomotives.

Having the group create a pool of independent inspectors who could assist railroad and owners in knowing how to write the contracts and in making independent inspections would be helpful, and probably would be supported by the FRA and other professional organizations to some extent. The group could also issue some sort of certificate or qualification to those who work in the field, and possibly to railroads themselves. It probably wouldn't have much legal force, but failure to have it could raise questions, and be a point in legal cases. In fact, it could become a part of some of the existing mechanical organizations that issue professional certifications.

It should be noted that the 213.7 qualifications can be done for specific tasks - yard tracks, non-CWR, etc. Therefore, any boiler certification could be for specific tasks such as hydro, welding, staybolts, etc.

I really agree that if something isn't done in this area, something will slip through the cracks (pardon the pun) and there will be an incident that impacts everyone through new regulations, costly insurance, bad reputations, and lives lost. I also very much agree that hero worship of the old days has been used to push against education and degrees. Having taught at universities, I know that just any degree isn't enough. There has got to be a technical school somewhere who works with boilers of all styles who can get involved, as many modern mechanical programs and professors probably have little knowledge of some of the older styles and issues that need to be addressed. AREMA worked with several such schools to get track engineering degrees going, so why not boiler and other skills.

Good luck on this, and thanks to everyone who has worked to get the facts out and alert the industry to the issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:58 pm
Posts: 38
I think the 213 reference is interesting and calls into question a whole gamut of practices that might not be followed at various operations. Thanks to the magic of YouTube, it becomes worrisome that the industry might be in for a shakeup on several levels resulting at multiple operations. This notion could easily deviate into a new thread entitled “Why I don’t volunteer at your museum.” Add egos to ignorance with respect to operational practices, maintenance practices, and track standards, and diesels are just as dangerous as tired boilers.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:48 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:57 pm
Posts: 99
I don't claim to be anything like an expert myself, but those looking for some basic information may be interested in the guidance on boiler and other issues published by the Heritage Railway Association at http://www.hra.uk.com. This is guidance published for UK railways with the approval of H.M. Railway Inspectorate, but it does refer to american boiler codes in places.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:12 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2561
Location: Strasburg, PA
o484 wrote:
I wonder if it makes sense for steam operators to form some kind of official body such as NORAC that has a standardized set of general maintenance practices and requirements separate from CFR 49 part 230. An group like this could create a "blacklist" of certain contractors who are known to produce questionable work while at the same time, maintain a list of reputable contractors.

The idea of creating a contractor "blacklist" may sound a bit harsh, if not draconian, but when it comes to safety I feel nothing is too extreme.
There are official bodies. The Engineering Standards Committee that wrote Part 230 still exists. ASME (for new construction) and NBIC (for repairs to existing boilers) have sections specifically for steam locomotives, explaining what repairs are allowed, and what standards are required. The FRA supplies the inspections and the final sign off on the repairs. Their inspectors aren't experts, but have been given enough education on boilers to be able to spot blatant malpractice, and they have the contact lists to call the true experts in time of need. In this case, the system worked, not in time to save K&T's money, but it time to prevent the boiler from going into operation.

As far as a "blacklist", who is going to pay for the liability insurance for the "Star Chamber" that makes those decisions? Talk about a defamation lawsuit punching bag.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 473
I have stayed out of this on purpose, and will continue to do so at the mercy of my sanity. This has been one of the most difficult things in my life that I have had a hand in.

The BSFSRY Inc. was bankrupt at the end of the 1996 season, and I was hired as a new GM in 1997 in the hopes that the RR could try "one last attempt" to stay afloat. I was given one year to prove that the RR could operate "in the black". I did that the first season, and was allowed to continue as the BSFSRY LLC.

At my job interview, I made it clear that I would take the job only if I was allowed to restore and operate "Old #77" from Tombstone Junction. I knew it needed a lot, as I had a short stint firing it at TJ.

I suggested to the Board of Directors to merge with a non-profit museum just up the street to allow for possible grant funding, etc. available to non-profits. Thus, the Big South Fork Railway LLC was dissolved and merged into the McCreary County Heritage Foundation.

TEA-21 funding, followed by direct funding as part of a general tourist area effort came shortly, and the project that I founded started to happen in 2002. In addition to being the GM, I was the project director for this project. I knew my limits, and knew generally what I was capable of and when I needed help from outside contractors. I had some contractors, including the late Greg Dodd lined up, and had my local professional boiler welder ready. We (myself and one other employee) had the engine stripped to the frame in 30 days with the asbestos abated and crane service included, and had spent less than $15K ......... as a project like this needs to have financial frugal oversight all the time. Without it costs spiral wildly.

For various reasons, I became an outcast within my organization as infighting occurred. My line item budget for contingencies and possible cost over-runs was attacked by my boss, and I was considered as incompetent for not knowing exactly how much each line item was going to cost. My 3-5 year restoration time line was considered too long, and the board decided it needed to be done quicker, so they sidelined me and hired a professional who could do better.

Steam Operations Corp (Scott Lindsey) was hired and took over the project about 2003. Scott employed Gary Bensman on the job. Mark Ray of TVRM was an engineering consultant. I was not allowed to make any decisions nor see any contract or budget, and to date believe that no budget existed.

They (Scott, Gary, Mark) decided that lowering the crown sheet would be a good idea, so I "think" it was lowered slightly in the new firebox design. At the same time, Gary removed a portion of the front lower tube sheet to make a new patch. At this same time, Gary removed the reinforcement rings from INSIDE the boiler barrel washouts, and he welded the new "patches" on the outside as reinforcement rings for the holes. They are not meant to be "scab patches". I don't know if Gary is a certified welder. Gary also welded in a new patch on the backhead bottom where several star cracked staybolt holes were found.

In the meantime, the wheels got new tires, axles turned at TVRM, etc. and other rod work and frame work was done by SOC and subcontractors, and the frame, drive boxes, axles, and side rods were re-assembled.

I eventually was fired by BSFSRY, due to multiple reasons that could take years to explain, but infighting was the basic cause. Steam Operations had exhausted the budget at the same time I handed in my keys in November 2004. At that time, the boiler was without firebox, but had the new rear tube sheet in place with a few tubes holding it, as well as the new door sheet in place. The crown was hanging on threaded rods and the side sheets were on the shop floor. Things didn't fit right when I last saw them. Nothing was welded, only tack bolted. I never saw any mill certs nor stamping on the sheets.

The tender frame was rebuilt and a new tank was fabricated locally, and one of the BSFSRY board members contributed out of his own pocket to get the tender finished, which I understand cost "only" $300k (tender only). The project then sat dead after $1.2 million was expended (I have been told). SOC ended work November 2004.

The front tube sheet patch did not have the correct hole layout (I saw photos on the Internet) and two banks of five tubes each at the bottom was missing. The layout was one tube pitch too high on the patch, and the patch was entirely wrong. Not my problem. THIS, possibly combined with the crown sheet position, is most likely the tubes problem, which may have led to the plugged tube holes. Plugging tube holes in itself is not right, but the patch may have been the initial cause of the resulting problem(s).

I have no interaction with Wasatch. Other than a few emails with are not even technical, I don't know Mr. Rimmasch. Steve Lee worked with Wasatch on the K&T 14, but I don't know his project relationship. Thus, I can't comment on anything that Wasatch has done, or not done. I was gone. With the funds paid to Wasatch, I believe the project cost has easily topped $2 million to date.

I was the "steam talent" for BSFSRY at that time. My friend Bill Johnson helped after I left, and headed up the volunteer group that operated under Wasatch until that volunteer group and Mr. Johnson were no longer welcome. Bill was the "steam talent" then, and recruited some of our other local friends including some KRM steam folks and others from the old NS steam program, but now this is also gone. Presently, unless someone has stepped in recently, there is no "steam talent" at the RR. If the loco were operable today, nobody there could run it, maintain it, or repair it. As far as I'm aware, there is no "steam knowledgeable" person on the board of directors, either.

I, like you, will await to see what happens. However, in some ways I'm watching "my baby".

I give my credentials only for transparency. As there are people who hide behind avatars and there are people who give opinions, I want to let folks know I am who I am. I have my faults, and am continually learning. I could write much more, but it is all a bad experience for me and I only hope that some good can become of it.

Sincerely,
Mark Jordan

Queen Annes' RR GM 1992-1996
BSFSRY GM 1997-2004

Currently:
Chief Boiler Inspector
Commonwealth of Kentucky

National Board NBIC Locomotive Task Group member


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Court Enters Judgment Against Wasatch (K&T 14 Ca
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:12 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 2557
Location: Sackets Harbor, NY
Thanks Mark for your factual chronological history of this ill fated project. Thanks also for not hiding behind an avatar as so many do. I've come to learn that any posting done by a phony screen name gets an immediate 70% credibility haircut by me. If you're not willing to sign you name to your posting it raises real questions as to your belief in what you're saying.

It would certainly be appropriate and helpful to hear from Mr. Rimmasch or another authorized spokesperson for Wasatch as the evidence to date certainly doesn't cast them in a very favorable light.

Perhaps, the silver lining in this dark cloud is as Kelly posts to warn all those thinking of hiring a steam locomotive restoration company to vet those available VERY CAREFULLY and investigate all references thoroughly.

Another blessing is that the potentially dangerous substandard work was caught before it could cause a serious incident.

Ross Rowland


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