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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:50 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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Talking about arcade games aborad "Amtrak": https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcakg631/8049006150
https://www.travelcodex.com/amtrak-supe ... ation-car/
But they didn't camed in the '80's as I thought, but in 2007: https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/arcade-room.15217/

But up untill when "Amtrak" used cars provided by fallen flags? (except for the double deck ones, which where in use up untill the '90's I think).
And when the last heavyweight cars went out of service?

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:46 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
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Location: Thomaston & White Plains
Last North American "real revenue service" use of typical heavyweight cars (3-axle trucks, 80 feet long, riveted bodies) was on the Montreal-area commuter service of Canadian National, about 1990-91. Most of the remaining two dozen or so cars still exist in heritage railway service in Canada and the US.

Howard P.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
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Location: Ipswich, UK
Howard P. wrote:
Last North American "real revenue service" use of typical heavyweight cars (3-axle trucks, 80 feet long, riveted bodies) was on the Montreal-area commuter service of Canadian National, about 1990-91. Most of the remaining two dozen or so cars still exist in heritage railway service in Canada and the US.

Howard P.


I know it's on 2 axle trucks, but this gem from 1928 still seemed to be being used on the VIA service from The Pas to Lynn Lake when I photographed it in October 1997....
Attachment:
97-944a.JPG
97-944a.JPG [ 285.18 KiB | Viewed 770 times ]

I did manage a ride on one of the ancient cars used on the Montreal electric service back in 1991, though they were being replaced by later ex VIA cars by that time on most of the loco hauled services on that line. Something sticks in my mind about the one I rode in dating from the WW1 era!

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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So late? I thought they where gone by the '50's. In Romania we used pre-war cars up untill the '90's.
But untill when heavyweights where used in the U.S.A.
I've read that the new train sets provied in fact more money loosing to the companies, because they didn't bring an army of passanger as they hoped, but in stad they where very expensive, so a burden to the buget. I'm curios how much truth is in this? Probably they still made some fuel economy, since less power traction was needed.

Around minute 1:42 a train (probably "20th Century Limited") crosses a bridge in New York City: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8otg7518YU
What bridge it is?

Did any one ever used the service of the Rail Expres Agency (R.E.A.)?

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:01 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
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Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
According to the description that comes with the movie, it's the old New York Central bridge across the Harlem River between 125th St. - Harlem and 138th St. - Mott Haven stations.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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The bridge is still there?
Man, the 138th Street Station... http://www.iridetheharlemline.com/2015/ ... ott-haven/

Funny thing that "20th Century Limited" was called by some "the most famous train in the world", but you can barely find any pictures of it before the streamline version... there are 2 films with the heavywright version from the '30's, but if you do want to see the consisit from the '10's and '20's...
I found more of the "Oriental Limited" and of the "Empire Builder" ("Great Northen Railway").
I found some artistic drawings of the "Empire Express": http://www.iridetheharlemline.com/2012/ ... e-express/
and I wonder how much does it resembles with the early "20th Century". That compartment drawing ... did some compartments had no walls?

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:32 pm 

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Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
According to the description on that Youtube.com link, it's the old swing bridge, shortly to be replaced by the modern lift bridge that is used today.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:33 pm 

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"Funny thing that "20th Century Limited" was called by some "the most famous train in the world", but you can barely find any pictures of it before the streamline version..."

Well, the 20th Century Limited was an overnight train in a "northern climate". For much of the year it left the station just as dusk appeared (~5pm to 7pm local time) and traveled overnight during darkness only to arrive an hour or so after sunrise. Most of the "good" photos of the later consists where taken during special publicity "photo-ops" arranged by the NYCRR. There are a few films of the train along the Hudson River and leaving the Station in Chicago, but those where captured in June or July when the days are the longest in that part of the world. Partly a limitation of the image capture equipment of the time (motion picture cameras, etc.)

"According to the description on that Youtube.com link, it's the old swing bridge, shortly to be replaced by the modern lift bridge that is used today."

Correct, that Harlem River swing bridge was replaced in the mid 1950's (IIRC).

And that train is not the 20th Century Limited, I believe it is the the Empire State Express. The Empire State express was a "day train" between New York City and Buffalo, Detroit and Cleveland. As a day train it was much easier to film since most of it's run was during daylight hours. The 20th Century Limited left the station around dinner time and made most of it's transit under darkness arriving just after breakfast in the destination city.

With rare exceptions (for car maintenance reasons) the 20th Century Limited from 1948 to the end of service in 1967 always ran with the high level lounge observations cars "Sandy Creek" and "Hickory Creek" in the "Lightning Stripe" paint scheme on the end of the train. These cars are very distinctive since the "Lightning Stripe" paint scheme takes a unique "dive" under the windows at the round end of the car.

These where the last "round end" observation cars in service on the NYCRR after 1959 when all other "round end" observations cars (Including the OBS cars on the Empire State Express; Franklin Roosevelt and Theodore Roosevelt) were removed from regular service to reduce operating costs.


Last edited by NYCRRson on Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
Another clue in the "Classic" NYC era is the Budd cars. The Century in those days had a consist of painted flat-sided cars EXCEPT for stainless fluted Santa Fe 10-6 and 4-4-2 Pullman cars running through to/from Los Angeles on the Super Chief, one of each type car in the early 1950's. [only the Super Chief moved its transcon cars on the Century; lesser Western trains moved their transcon cars on lesser NYC trains.]

Also stainless fluted high-window obs Wingate Brook was the regular substitute for one of the "Creek" cars on the Century. In fact Wingate Brook was the obs on the last Century leaving GCT for Chicago.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:07 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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NYCRRson , probably it was hard to take images before the '30's (at night), but I did find more image with "Oriental Limited" + "Empire Builder" before prestreamlined days and even some with the "Overland Limited" ("Union Pacific" one).
Talking about the "Overland Limited", this was a classic "Pullman" car, with middle corridor (open section)? https://clickamericana.com/wp-content/u ... -train.jpg
But why "Pullman" was not so eager to addopt side corridor (so doored sleeping accomodations) even on new passager cars?
For what used the thing above the car? https://www.american-rails.com/images/8 ... 465668.jpg Radio antena?
I did some resarch and "20th Century Limited" + "Broadway Limited" had radiotelephone for passangers too.

When you look and some old passanger cars, "Orient Express" (and the equals from U.S.A. or less U.S.A. costly versions) * or even some less-luxurios Europeanen rolling stock made in the '50's and the '60's (for Eastern-Europe I will go in some cases even in the '70's or maybe '80's) they seemed they where made by some ancient or even alient civilization if you compare them to rolling stock today, which seems to be just junk in terms of aspect.

* there are some post-heavyweight U.S.A. passanger cars that are having the inside look.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:12 pm 

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Quote:
probably it was hard to take images before the '30's (at night), but I did find more image with "Oriental Limited" + "Empire Builder" before prestreamlined days and even some with the "Overland Limited"


But those were "day and night" trains that took several days to get from start to finish. So there where more times when they could be filmed in daylight.

Quote:
But why "Pullman" was not so eager to adopt side corridor (so doored sleeping accommodations) even on new passenger cars?


Even way back in the Heavyweight era on USA trains there where "side corridor" sleeping cars. These had individual rooms with doors. The "open section" sleeping cars where cars with a corridor down the middle and essentially coach seats that converted to beds at night. These had fabric curtains to separate the beds from the corridor.

The cars with separate rooms with doors usually had toilet (water closet) facilities in the room. These where the mark of a high priced "Luxury Train". The NYCRR 20th Century Limited streamlined passenger cars that where introduced in 1938 where some of the first "all room" passenger trains in the USA. They had no coach seats and no "open section" cars.

Quote:
For what used the thing above the car? https://www.american-rails.com/images/8 ... 465668.jpg Radio antena?


Yes, that is a radio antenna to allow passengers to make/receive phones calls in route. Usually one special car in the train would have that equipment. And it was only on a few "luxury trains".


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
One big advantage to open section Pullmans was that the Section was on one side of the car, the aisle was in the middle and on the other side of the car was another Section. Thus in the approximately 6' 3" of car length you could accommodate 4 passengers in two Sections.

Enclose that Section as a Compartment and now you can accommodate 2 passengers in the same 6' 3" of car length. The berths plus washstand and hopper for one Compartment took about 2/3 of the width of the car, and the aisle was along the windows. That's half the revenue compared to Sections. The Compartment space charge was not double the space charges for both the upper and lower in a Section and the railroad got one Standard (First Class) fare for each passenger.

Pullman did go for more modern accommodations in the 1930's. The Double Bedroom has a door and a side aisle. The room is 2/3 the width of the car and has a bench seat that folds down into a bed and another bed above it that folds down. It accommodates 2 passengers. The Pullman Roomette has one seat and a bed that pulls down from the wall. There is one Roomette on each side of the aisle and each accommodates 1passenger.

To put things in perspective, the classic heavyweight Pullman is a 12 Section, 1 Drawing Room car that accommodates 27 passengers. The classic lightweight Pullman is a 10 Roomette, 6 Double Bedroom car that accommodates 22 passengers.

Note: Amtrak has redesignated one of its Superliner/Viewliner accommodations a "Roomette." These Pullman Roomettes are different.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:10 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:25 pm
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Quote:
NYCRRson , probably it was hard to take images before the '30's (at night), but I did find more image with "Oriental Limited" + "Empire Builder"


The NYCRR made a flim called "the Flight of The Century" in 1935. It was of course likely filmed in daylight without the real 20th Century Limited (which was busy making lots of money for the NHYCRR at that time). You might enjoy this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAPLE_7wqNg

At that time the Limited still had one or more "section" sleeping cars in the consist. But many more "room cars".

In 1938 they rolled out all new "streamlined" (aka smoothside) passenger cars and the famous streamlined Dreyfus Hudson Steam Locomotives. The 1938 20th Century was an "all room" train with no coach seats or section sleeping cars. And it was fully air-conditioned so a traveler could not open the windows, but they could adjust the temperature in their room.

It also did not have a baggage car since most passengers took their luggage into their room with them. And handling baggage at the stations slowed down the train.

If someone had a lot of baggage the railroad would arrange to send it ahead on an earlier or later train train that had a baggage car. And they had delivery services that would take your baggage from the train station to your hotel/house.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:39 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
The movie tells a lot about mid-1930's passenger operations.

The heavyweight Century was a 20-hour train between Chicago and New York. The movie shows it left La Salle St. in Chicago at 2.30 PM so there was plenty of daylight to photograph the actual NYC 26. You'll notice at least two sections leaving Chicago. The section in the movie (probably 1st 26) has a full (60 foot) RPO car and the next car is a combine with the lounge, barber, etc. The Century did not officially carry checked baggage, but the combine's baggage apartment can carry company material. Given the Century's clientele I wouldn't be surprised if the combine had unofficial baggage.

By 1938 the Century (and PRR's Broadway) was a 16-hour train,

The 1938 lightweight consists included cars for two sections in each direction, including four baggage-RPO cars.

The 1948 lightweight consists had new specialty cars for only one consist in each direction. NYC could, of course, draw from the prewar cars for second sections. There were new baggage-RPO cars as well. The airlines had pressurized DC-6's and Constellations by then.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:21 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:25 pm
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I think that NYCRR advertising film was a well done mix of real shots of the actual Century (like leaving La Salle St. Station in two sections. undoubtedly a real shot of the Century) and some other general RR action shots. Like the car knocker inspecting journal boxes at "Elkhart' with a visible electrified third rail in front of the truck. That shot had to be taken in the electrified zone (GCT to Croton-Harmon). The journal box cover has "Pullman" cast into it, very neat.

They even thru in a "plug" for ATS (Automatic Train Stop), the 1930's version of "Positive Train Control". And the train stenographer taking dictation and the Valet pressing someones pants. They didn't miss a thing.

And the film does show section sleepers, room sleepers, dining cars, RPO's, observation cars and even the lounge car with the Barber Shop. All in all a real good flavor of first class train travel during the heavyweight era in the USA.

I think a couple of the shots of a train passing at speed are probably another train (some had a couple of baggage cars in the consist ?). And, at about 14:25 they show a northbound train heading up along the East shore of the Hudson River "on it's way to GCT in the morning". But those are minor nitpicks.

All that film is missing is the smell of steam locomotives.


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