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A few questions
http://rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44829		 Page 2 of 28
Author:  djl [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
Can anyone recognize what company operated this dining car before "Amtrak"? http://www.inforworks.com/stlouis3a.jpg
Author:  djl [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
Another question: this fares where for a person or for a room? http://railroads.unl.edu/documents/zoom ... F_1907.005
Author:  PaulWWoodring [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
The 1971 NY-BUF-CLE-CHI Amtrak train was the only Amtrak train to ever serve Cleveland Union Terminal (Terminal Tower). I got to ride it to Toledo that Summer. Pretty much everything on-board was still Penn Central, including the crews. When the service came back in 1975 it was to the current lakefront station. The last passenger service to use CUT was the E-L commuter train to Youngstown, which ended in January 1977, with an extra-long 4 car train to accommodate all of the "train-off", last ride railfans (including me). It was standing room only, all the way to Y'Town, with a night photo session at the end co-organized by the late Dave McKay.
Author:  Brian Norden [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
djl wrote:
Another question: this fares where for a person or for a room? http://railroads.unl.edu/documents/zoom ... F_1907.005
Boy, that timetable is from about 1907! I don;t know how the Pullman Co. priced things at that time.

I do have a Pullman tariff book from 1962 and it gives different charges if a bedroom, compartment, or drawing room was to be occupied by one or two people. Slightly higher for higher occupancy. First you looked up the end points and obtained the lower berth rate. Then you went to another table to determine the change for other accommodations (upper berth, roomette. bedroom, etc.)

A quick look at a Santa Fe public time table from 1923 shows the railroad providing Pullman accommodation charges just by the type of space without differentiating number of occupants -- but it says that is provided for information only and subject to change by the Pullman Co.
Author:  djl [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
I know it's from 1907, but still I was curios if you did pay more then 1,000 (one thousand) U.S. Dollars for a compartment (any kind) or per person. 'cause even for person that haves enough money, 1,200 U.S.D./person isn't cheap. Probably the price was/compartment and if there where more person, the price was divided among them.
I cant' understeand why the upper breath (bed) costed more. I can understeand why the end compartments where a little bit more exprensive - above the bogies there is more balance and noice, so more confort means that you stay in the middle of the car.
Another thing that I can't understand is why the sleeping cars made after the '20's looked so Spartan on the inside - I've seen sleeping cars used in communist countries (excepting former U.S.S.R.) and the look was far beyond better.
Author:  Brian Norden [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
djl wrote:
I know it's from 1907, but still I was curios if you did pay more then 1,000 (one thousand) U.S. Dollars for a compartment (any kind) or per person. 'cause even for person that haves enough money, 1,200 U.S.D./person isn't cheap. Probably the price was/compartment and if there where more person, the price was divided among them.
I cant' understeand why the upper breath (bed) costed more. I can understeand why the end compartments where a little bit more exprensive - above the bogies there is more balance and noice, so more confort means that you stay in the middle of the car.
Another thing that I can't understand is why the sleeping cars made after the '20's looked so Spartan on the inside - I've seen sleeping cars used in communist countries (excepting former U.S.S.R.) and the look was far beyond better.
We do numbers differently from in Europe.

I think you are miss-reading the pricing. There is a decimal point in the prices. On the first line from San Francisco to Fresno the price is one dollar and 50 cents for a double berth.

The upper berth sold for a lower price than the lower berth. It just that the Pullman company used the lower berth price as the key for determining other prices.
See below for the first two pages of the chart.

In the open sections the berths were historically sold separately. Buy out an entire section I think only began in the late 1920s. The normal setting arrangement was for the lower berth customer to ride the forward facing seat and the customer with the upper berth to ride seating rearward. You got to realize that some of the trips required two days and two nights of travel.

Long time, arrangement of sleeping cars was to place the rooms at the ends and the open sections between them. On some of the trains to where the moneyed people vacationed there were all-room cars. But, your right about location; only in the in late 1940s and into the 1950 were some sleeping cars built with bedrooms in the center.

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Author:  djl [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
Sorry, I was trying to talk in today's equyvalent of the prices. That's why I sayed 1,000 Dollars.
For 2 or more passangers is per person or per room?
Author:  Alan Walker [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
One other thing is that on occasions where black passengers were ticketed for a Pullman sleeping car, they were assigned a compartment, regardless of the rate they paid.
Author:  djl [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
Well, if they payed for a roomete they could get a compartment?, a compartment beeing better then a roomete.
Author:  Alan Walker [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
djl wrote:
Well, if they payed for a roomete they could get a compartment?, a compartment beeing better then a roomete.


That's right. If the colored passenger paid for an open section, they would be assigned a compartment/drawing room, so as not to be seen by the other passengers. Most dining cars also had one or two tables that could be blocked off from the remainder of the dining room by movable curtains. Those tables were used to accommodate colored passengers, the steward drawing the curtain once they were seated.
Author:  djl [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
On one hand they where unlucky, one other they where. I learn history every day.
But what companies didn't had the curtains and let people mix however they wanted.
Author:  mldeets [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
djl wrote:
Sorry, I was trying to talk in today's equyvalent of the prices. That's why I sayed 1,000 Dollars.
For 2 or more passangers is per person or per room?

To hopefully add a little clarity a $1 fare in 1907 would be equivalent to $27.56 in today's dollars according to this online calculator: https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflat ... 7?amount=1 . Back then they were getting quite a deal when compared to today's rates. In 1907 there was competition between the railroads for the passengers and they could also withstand lower passenger fares as long as their freight income was enough......mld
Author:  EJ Berry [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
To clarify, the berth-to-compartment upgrade applied to pre-1935 heavyweight cars where the lowest priced enclosed space was the compartment. With lightweight cars the upgrade would be to a roomette, if available. The Jim Crow laws applied only in the Southern States (mostly former Confederacy).

Dining cars in the affected states had the curtains as surely as they had tablecloths.

If the party had booked a roomette, that was an enclosed space and he would stay hidden in the roomette.

As to Black Conductors or Trainmen, the RR Companies did not hire Black people for these jobs until the Civil Rights Act of 1964 required them to do so. This was true of many US companies, both North and South, as to better paying jobs.

Phil Mulligan
Author:  Brian Norden [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
EJ Berry wrote:
To clarify, the berth-to-compartment upgrade applied to pre-1935 heavyweight cars where the lowest priced enclosed space was the compartment. With lightweight cars the upgrade would be to a roomette, if available. The Jim Crow laws applied only in the Southern States (mostly former Confederacy).
Some modernized heavyweight cars (late 1930s)received double bedrooms, but I don't know if any were assigned to the South.

Quote:
Dining cars in the affected states had the curtains as surely as they had tablecloths.
The curtains were used to separate the few tables available to Blacks from the rest of the dining room.
Author:  djl [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few questions
I found this item for sale (unfourtenley, I can't contact the seller): https://www.ebay.com/itm/303280468041?V ... 3280468041
If you do take a look at year 1940 you can see some compartmenst with 3 breath/compartment and some with 6/compartment. So I do see they adopted some Europeanen stuff, with all that theren't wheren't enclosed compartments. I wonder how many of these where made... they where getting closer to something nice. I don't think they had sink in compartments.
In Europe 3 breath/compartment (you have a sink too) = 2nd class sleeping car, 6 breaths per compartment = 2nd class couchette car (no sink into the compartment).

In Romania we don't have any longer 2nd class for sleeping cars. The very old sleeping cars can have 3 breath (the one from the top is smaller), but they are do use only 2. Why? The cars (1959-1973) are looking very nice, but they do have a problem: no air condition and in the summer it's getting hot. The cars they replaced (1966-1984 made... yeah, the replaced some newer cars) ... they didn't have air conditioning, but the surface of windows that you could open was bigger (so more air getting inside) and you could open the windows from the corridor too (unlike the the 2nd ones, who don't have this option).
Why they bringed them. Probably some high placed bribe + most of them had coal extra heating, in stad of oil extra heating (just few of the 1966-1984 had oil extra heating). They should have kept the communist made ones for the very hot season, and the West-German made ones for the cold season. Oh, the West-German ones where made in small numbers, so finding spare parts is heavy. The communist made ones (most where East-Germans) where used in an least 5 countries, so finding spare parts was more easy... But you know, Romania...
My oldest memory is rinding a sleeping car in the summer of 1985. I was about 2 and half years old back then.
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