Kevin,

I’ve been stuck in this paint bucket for 16 years now. One thing that I learned early on was what the final paint job looked like out of the shop was highly dependent on who mixed the paint, how they mixed it and how it was applied. You could get variations from batch to batch. A good paint job could last many years. A bad one would weather off quickly or worse, peel. That’s why they made color drift cards so you have a company standard to shoot for. In reality, it was get ‘em in, throw on some paint and get ‘em back out the door. I’ll admit that the 50’ rule does apply in most cases.

The manufacturers could be counted on to do a good job, though.

Going way back to the varnishes, embedded dirt and yellowing of the varnish changed the colors over time. Matching those would require a detailed analysis.

Sixteen years, Eric? Well then, you've definitely earned the right to be snarky. LOL Don't forget about the deleterious effects of widespread tobacco usage on interior colors.

"Charleston Green" got me to thinking again. The history of paint in general can always be a fascinating subject and when it comes to some of the individual colors, they can have a history all to themselves.

Take Woodfield Green for instance. First off, that moniker doesn't seem very American in origin. Where I see Woodfield here in this country, it's generally used as part of a fancy name for a golf course, a housing development, an old folks home, a cemetery, something like that. Actually, it sounds more like it came from the United Kingdom instead.

The Singer Company's European manufacturing operations were centered in and around Glasgow, Scotland. Plenty of different place names ending in "field" over there. Their use of Woodfield Green in branding and advertising in Europe far predates its use here. Before Singer adopted Woodfield in the U.S., they primarily used a color very similar, if not identical, to 93-24591, International Door Country Green, Plate 104.

I might have to look into this further but there could be a moral to this story eventually about discounting the names of these colors when it comes to research. In the meantime, how about an apparent scan of an old Singer printed box end from the U.K. and a newfangled computer-generated image of the flag of Narva, Estonia?...

Yeah, the names of colors are pretty much meaningless except for denoting a color “family”. Pick a random name of a color and do a google image search on it. UPs “Harbor Mist Gray” is a good example. So is PRRs “Tuscan Red”. As far as railroads go, the only time a name means anything is when a railroad named a specific company color. Even then, sometimes the color evolved over time and you have to also go by year as well as name. As the color evolved, so did the paint color codes. That’s why it is so important to document the results when you are able to have an actual sample prepared and scanned.

While we're discussing paint, we should get into the changes in pigments, solvents, carriers and sealants over the 75 years covered by this thread.

RDG's FT's were delivered in February, 1945. The paint used by EMD then would have been subject to wartime restrictions on critical materials, such as copper. I would guess the paint used on RDG's 1948 F-3's was much different from the FT's paint.

Passenger cars were nicknamed "Varnish" because of the sealant coating that had to be reapplied frequently to protect the pigment from fading or running.

Many of the heavy metals that were used back then have been banned for environmental reasons. Sealants that evaporate into the air (see the photo of RDG 252 basking in the sun while the paint "dries") are pollutants. I'm sure that's why 252 wasn't kept inside the shop building while the paint dried.

In short, today's paints are different frim the historic coatings and most of the old coatings are not really available and must be approximated.

Food for thought.

BTW RDG SW1500 2763 was squashed by a runaway covered hopper. There were no injuries. Reading Shops were busy rebuilding 1937 SW units for the second time (first by EMD in 1956 to 600 HP SW900m's) and had to farm out the 2763 job to Paducah. 2763 came back in the all-green paint.


Phil Mulligan

The high VOC alkyd enamels and nitrocellulose lacquers are pretty much gone from large scale use and are banned outright in some states. They were mostly phased out in the nineties. You can still buy them in “project” quantities where allowed.

The low VOC acrylic enamels and lacquers as well as urethanes and a few epoxies are what you’ll find today. The low VOC paints are the water-born coatings with very low solvent content. The sheens on these current paints may be a little different than the old stuff. The performance of the single stage coatings is about on par with the old enamels and lacquers if not better.

The big difference nowadays is in the pigments. The EPA doesn’t much care for the heavy metal oxides of old and if you’re environmentally aware, you shouldn’t either. To match an old sample as close as possible, you pretty much need a spectrophotometer to analyze the color and then come up with the right mix of base and pigments. The color won’t be a scientifically dead-on match but should be so close so as to not be discernible by eye.

A note on color models: When you have a sample analyzed by an independent lab, you’ll likely get the results in the Munsell and/or CIELABS color models. These can be used as a starting point for your coatings lab to match to your sample. Direct input of those numbers may not give exact results unless everyone is using the same software and equipment - an unlikely scenario. Some tweaking will be required. Sometimes that’s the way you have to go if you have a small part that has the desired color somewhere down in the layers of paint. If you have a known good chip or drift card, have it matched directly by your chosen supplier’s coatings lab.

So as not to contribute to thread drift, I’ll hopefully have the current PPG color codes for the Bee Line scheme next week (in case you’re itching to paint something).

The following are the PPG Colors applied to the NS Reading heritage locomotive.

Yellow HSL801270
Green HSL 933220
Handrail Yellow HSL 919807

EBL

Many thanks, Eric. Part of my request to PPG was for any historical data they used to make the matches so when I hear back, I’ll post that info if available as it may be valuable in the cross reference.

I'll add my thanks as well and a reminder to everyone concerned that all contributions to this thread are welcome even if the discussion breaks a rail once and awhile. Pretty much SOP on a Dodge truck forum I frequent so it's nothing I'm not used to. LOL I'll attempt to put it back on track if I must.

Those Pullman browns and greens can be quite addicting if you're not a big fan of moderation. Bad internet message board joke, I know. Anyway Eric, I found the formula for that 5502 Pullman Green here on the website. Just from the proportions posted, I could tell right away it's a much brighter color than the Charleston Green...

viewtopic.php?t=4304

So just for fun, I've collected the Encycolorpedia pages for the various Pullman-esque colors mentioned so far just to get an idea of how they may compare to each other in the real world. Whether or not they're completely accurate, the results are quite interesting...

Charleston Green:

https://encycolorpedia.com/232b2b

GMC Brewster Green:

https://encycolorpedia.com/1b2215

Chrysler Fleet UPS Brown:

https://encycolorpedia.com/323118

Pullman Green:

https://encycolorpedia.com/3b331c

Pullman Brown (UPS Brown):

https://encycolorpedia.com/644117

Wow, I just might have to sleep that one off and Phil, too bad there's not a YouBoob video of the #2763 incident. Since no one was seriously killed or injured, that might've been okay to set up a couple lawn chairs for. LOL I'll play with these two pics later to see if I can get the sky to match up...

Good morning, all!!! I don't know but it seems to me the big difference between these Pullman-like colors is the amount of red pigment used in relation to the yellow and blue. Green plus red makes brown so the more red added, the browner the result would appear. For example, take Pullman Green, add a little more red and viola, Pullman Brown.

93-2015, GMC Brewster Green, is a very dark olive color. Lightened up by 25% on Encycolorpedia, it looks like this...

https://encycolorpedia.com/222b1a

One thing I can say for certain, is that GMC Brewster Green is much closer in color to the Charleston Green BNSF now uses compared to either of the two Pullman colors, i.e. far less red.

That Bob Gottschall fellow took some very good pictures of Reading equipment toward the end and this one of GP-7 #661 is no exception. Not a huge amount of red in that paint although it's getting pretty thin in places and some primer is beginning to show up top. A fresher olive-colored cast appears on a portion of the pilot and step area, perhaps a touch-up. Don't see any Grande Gold/Duco Orange anywhere on there, either.

Also isolated the UPS codes from PaintRef's images of the 1969 DuPont fleet catalog...

RDG 661 is a 1952 passenger GP-7 with steam generator and no dynamic brakes. Fuel and water tanks are between the trucks as are the air tanks. Paint is in the as-delivered scheme, repainted a couple of times and with yellow added to the safety appliances.

The sealant has weathered to a flat appearance although the short hood sides have been buffed to a semi-gloss by crewmen's shoulders. RDG liked dual control but preferred the long hood as front on the GP-7's and Alco RS-3's. Note the closest handrail has had the yellow worn off.

Phil Mulligan

Yeah Phil, that pic was taken over by 16th Street in Lebanon at the old junction with the Cornwall. The fairly new-at-the-time tan brick office building is located behind and to the right of the photographer's right shoulder.

SOB, give me a drink. Looks like I'll have to go cold turkey on those funky Pullman colors. That old UPS truck on the first page is still something you don't see every day, though. LOL At least in our area on their main fleet, they're using what amounts to the Pullman Green. I know at one time with the brown thing they were painting the trucks closer in color to the driver's uniforms but now have seem to have returned to their traditional identifying green/brown color.

Turns out the Reading was a dark olive Brewster Green-type railroad instead. The Brewster Greens have a very long history in the paint world and the PaintRef listings of the various named shades and codes go back to 1928...

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcoded ... 42&rows=50

Here's a survivor 1925 Buick with its all-original factory paint, except for the black fenders, from two different sun angles and from what I tell, two different locations...

No doubt the origin of the name "Brewster Green" is tied in with the Brewster Carriage Company which was founded by James Brewster in New Haven, Connecticut in 1810, a couple decades before the Philadelphia and Reading even existed...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_&_Co.

Now that that's pretty much that, I started working on those two shifter pictures. Got the sky and handrail colors lined up pretty well but no matter what else I try to do, I just can't seem get the two greens to match each other... LOL

The reason that the greens don't match up on the before and after pics of 2763 is that they don't! It was reported in Extra 2200 South when it first arrived that the green on the repaired unit was darker. No doubt due to the paint used by Paducah.

Time to tackle Pullman Green: The paint specified for GP7s was DuPont Pullman Green. When the RS-3s were delivered, RDG was not happy with the fact Sherwin-Williams paint was used, in conflict with specified DuPont color. (it's painted, ain't it?) That color shows up as a little bit more brown than the EMD paint. (not as brown as UPS Pullman Brown) Back some years ago, I "rubbed down" GP7 625 when it was sitting stored at Bethlehem Engine Terminal, and it was very dark. You can see on the 661
photo that oxide and filth have changed the color a bit, a very typical appearance for the Geep 7s.

The Alco thing brings up another subject: When looking at the PRR units stored on Conrail, I have come to the conclusion that most diesels delivered to the PRR were painted BLACK, not Brunswick Green. My contention is when PRR units were renumbered into Penn Central compatible numbers, old numbers were painted over with Brunswick Green, which was definitely GREEN, and contrasted. An exception may have been Baldwin, which probably had PRR HQ guys crawling all over the plant.
So, you're not going to turn back new painted, badly needed units replacing steam just for PAINT, are you? The PRR types will SWEAR that ALL diesels were painted Brunswick, but I contend that if they were wreck-repaired, or reworked otherwise shopped and repainted by PRR then that was the case.
Two stories I heard about Brunswick Green: One was that a couple of gallons or Chrome Yellow were added to a drum of black. The other was that it was tinted that way so "the guys" wouldn't steal it.

That’s a puzzle within itself. Per the late George Rust of DuPont, there were seven shades of “Pullman Green”, each dependent on road and/or region. I believe I have five of them in the list. All had a Pullman stock number of 70-10. So, which “Pullman Green”?

The ALCO thing.... I can imagine ALCO pulling a fast one. Baldwin by proximity, no. EMD with their corporate relationship with DuPont, no again. But then being the “standard railroad of the world”, those standards got played with fastly and loosely in some cases.

Now you're getting the hang of it, Geep!!! LOL It's much better and easier to use old photos to tell colors apart than it is try to match them. (wink, wink)

Eric, since you seem to be a bit more tech-minded when it comes to paint, here's an AACA forum thread where the guys are discussing their trials and tribulations with older shades of Brewster Green. This is where I pulled the 1925 Buick pics from...

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/269484-19 ... aint-code/

Okay, now this one might cause a little bit of head trauma so put your railroad-striped helmets on. Safety glasses and/or welding goggles are optional but recommended.

For some odd and unknown reason, we Mopar guys have an apparent attraction toward older Pontiacs. As to why, I can't really be objective there since I think they're okay too. Anyway, if you look down the list of Brewster Greens from the PaintRef site I posted earlier, you'll see one from 1973 used by Olds and Pontiac. This color is more of a very dark emerald-type green instead of olive. It is also the same color as 1973 General Motors Midnight Green...

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetai ... ont=5480LH

What I find very interesting is the potential coincidence involved here. In 1968, for the 1969 model year, shortly after the demise of the PRR, Pontiac issued a one-year-off version of what they called Midnight Green then, in 1973, followed it up with a slightly different shade, Brewster Green. Is there a possible connection to the Pennsy's more modern DGLE? Well, I'm certainly not going to answer that question but I will post up a couple pics of 1973 Pontiac Brewster Green Trans Am Firebirds for you guys to look at...