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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Staying away from those "Pullman-esque" colors would've been a real smart idea to begin with but as far as the Reading goes, it was hard to avoid. LOL Found a few of the UPS browns to post up...

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetai ... pont=23254

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetai ... upont=7014

L0561, N0561, and V0561 are listed as "Pullman Brown" in the Sherwin-Williams database but nothing for 0561 pops up on PaintRef as of now...

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetai ... upont=0561

93-6578 Chrome, that Federal Yellow which UPS calls "Forklift Yellow" was/is, no kidding, actually the color of their forklifts, not the lettering. I might not be the only one, though, who thinks their main delivery truck green/brown color varies or has changed over the years. I do remember their older truck tractors leaning a bit more toward the greenish side...


Attachments:
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Last edited by NVPete on Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:09 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 38
Wow! How did I miss this one? A couple of basics: The Reading used the same green on all of its diesels from the FTs to the MP15s. That green is based on the DuPont colors.
A lot of years ago, I was able to take a paint chip off one of the FP7s in Reading Terminal, and put a little sample of Scale Coat's Southern Green on it. You couldn't tell which was which except for the gloss of the Scale Coat paint!
The imitation gold was EMD's stock color, used on many paint schemes, including B&O, on F-units.

Fast Forward to 1962: The Reading, wanting a new image for its new GP30 locomotives, suggested that EMD dust off the FP7 paint diagram, and superimpose those colors-green from the stripe, and imitation gold from the trim stripes-onto the GP30 demonstrator 1962. A chrome yellow was used for end stripes and handrails. That imitation gold had a darker cast to it.

In 1963, Alco Products built the C-424s, using Sherwin-Williams paint. The imitation gold was darker with a slight brownish cast. The green also appeared a little darker.

A few years later, the Reading repainted the GP30s with who-knows-what, and the yellow tended to fade to a very light color. Also the Reading was not famous for washing its locos, and the green appeared darker than it really was.

in 1967, GE delivered the U30Cs, and mew delivered units appeared different again, the imitation gold a bit lighter.

Just prior to Conrail, the Reading painted GP35 3640 solid green, which was the SAME as what was on it as built. When the RCT&HS was working to remove the Conrail blue paint, the paint similarity was discovered.

The GP40-2s, GP39-2s, SW1001s, amd MP15s, all used the same green .Handrails and sill stripes were painted a lemon yellow.
Anything that was painted in the Reading shop was painted with whatever a paint salesman sold to them, so colors varied due to oxidation, pigments, etc.
Another variation was SW1500 2763, which was rebuilt by Paducah shops due to its cab being decapitated, came back with a darker green.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:07 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
I'm glad you're enjoying the thread and I certainly do appreciate you joining in, Geep!!! Myself, I can always get carried away talking about the Reading. I'm still saying five greens, though. LOL

Here's where I discovered the Reading used two different greens on the DF's and DP's...

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/30428.aspx

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ,nodelay=1

This picture of FP-7 #900, taken in 1972 before it was repainted again a year or two later, clearly shows both colors...

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=589432

If you look carefully at old pics, you'll see two different greens on some of the early Conrail paintovers using the 1973 green on the '62 scheme.

The museum folks should easily be able to dig through the CSX livery on GP-39-2 #3412 to unearth the '73 green and yellow. That one was never repainted by the D&H or Guilford and EMD was probably using Imron by then.

Paint colors often vary between manufacturers even though they're supposed to be the same. The SP&S Alcos were a mildly richer-looking yellow compared to their EMD's, just like the Reading's. The GE's were a bit brighter. For the purposes of this discussion, I am considering the DuPont fleet colors to be the standard.

If I remember right, #2763 got rolled down in Port Richmond. Whoops!!!

A couple very good mid-seventies pics for your viewing pleasure. The green is holding up okay but the yellow on GP-30 #3612 has unevenly deteriorated quite a bit since it was applied about 13 years prior. On the #90906 steam crane, only repainted two years or so before the formation of Conrail like the three surviving FP-7's, the yellow still looks pretty fresh but the green seems a little flat. Got a decent shot of the 93-1290 paint chip in the sun so that's included as well.

EDIT: Added two more pics. I "Visened" the picture of U30C #6302 to get the red out. The yellow looks a lot like the yellow on the heavy duty Venetian Yellow GMC I posted on Page 1. I'm sure we can agree on the fact the Reading was a little hard on their air horns. LOL The pic of GP-35's #3640 and #3624 coupled back to back is a great study of the '62 and '73 paint schemes together. The safety always yellow on each appears absolutely identical...


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Last edited by NVPete on Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:10 pm, edited 18 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:00 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
This was the first runner-up for the 1962 green, Geep, Fruehauf Trailer Green. It lost out for being slightly too blue and the PaintRef scan makes it look even bluer. The DuPont code is 93-7666...

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetai ... nt=93-7666

Let's see if I can get this one in without any edits. LOL An old Old Dominion Freight Line truck serves as a good example.

EDIT: Nope, couldn't do it. Had to take the "s" out of "Lines".

DOUBLE EDIT: According to Eric's list, 7666 was the Chicago, North Shore, & Milwaukee's green until the end of the operation in 1963...


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Last edited by NVPete on Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:04 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1773
Location: New Franklin, OH
Careful guys.... We don't want to spread misinformation. I realize that that this discussion is about alternatives for colors that are close to the actual colors but please be careful when slinging "facts".

geep392 wrote:
A lot of years ago, I was able to take a paint chip off one of the FP7s in Reading Terminal, and put a little sample of Scale Coat's Southern Green on it.

You need to properly prepare a paint ship before you can color match it. Southern Sylvan Green (DuPont 1317) is not the same as Reading Woodfield Green (DuPont 6195). As far as I know, Sylvan Green was a Southern-only color. Woodfield Green was also used on the WP.

geep392 wrote:
The imitation gold was EMD's stock color, used on many paint schemes, including B&O, on F-units.

Reading Imitation Gold (DuPont 54388) is not the same as B&O Imitation Gold (DuPont 54292). B&O Imitation Gold is the same as EMD 8106248. Also used on CNJ, Soo, NKP, Wabash and Western Maryland. Reading Imitation Gold is the same as used on CGW, MILW, DL&W and EMD demonstrators in the '50s (I'm not sure but it may not have been cataloged as one of their standard colors - could be wrong, though. I don't have a number for it. I'd love to see an EMD color book).

geep392 wrote:
A chrome yellow was used for end stripes and handrails.

This was likely the Aspen Gold (DuPont 6479) referenced in the list which is in the chrome yellow family. Also an EMD standard (8173994). Same color as used on D&RGW, hence the name.

And, again, I can't stress this enough: Do NOT go by photographs when trying to match color when it comes down to the actual painting of something. You will be deeply disappointed and out a fair amount of money to boot. Same goes with model paint. Otherwise, carry on gentlemen.

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Eric Schlentner
Turner of Wrenches, Drawer of Things


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:03 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
These are those two different Southern greens, Eric, 93-5800 on top and 93-1317 on the bottom...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:34 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 38
Well, that pic of the U-boat and GP35 has been monkeyed with and the yellow GLOWS, and is not a good match at all.

A few books ago Morning Sun apparently didn't like the way Reading yellow was so faded that it didn't look so good, was "enhanced", and the effect looked artificial. It glowed just like the above photo.

The photo with the GP30's shows the fading of the "yellow". I suspect that the GP30s were repainted after they were renumbered into the 3600s. The renumbering didn't look good, and I suspect it was hastily done. I'm guessing that the thrifty Reading didn't use DuPont paint for that one, hence the bad fading.

Ah yes, the 90906...this one will fool you! It was painted standard safety (handrail?) yellow, not anybody's imitation gold. The green? Who knows!

When it came to freight cars, several different paints were used, some of which seemed to look a little darker--also don't forget the filth factor.

And yes, as far as the RCT&HS's newest acquisition, the GP39-2 3412, green was spotted somewhere on the rear folding step (for MU lash up).


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:38 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
The PaintRef page for 93-1317, New Idea Green...

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetail ... nt=93-1317

It's fairly easy to see why this green can be confused with a legitimate Reading green and if there was such a thing as an ordinary average homogeneous version, this would probably be it. Seems like NS has a real affinity for this color and I believe they're also using it on their ecological yard humpers. According to the Sherwin-Williams database, Eric, it's supposed to be the final Railway Express Agency/REA Express green. This looks way too blue so I'm not sure if it's a good example or not...


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Last edited by NVPete on Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:21 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:48 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
The first five GP-35's numbered in the 6500-series showed up with solid green down to the trucks. I suspect just the yellow stripe on the GP-30's was painted over and not the whole thing since that would've been a waste of paint. It was probably done because it got too dirty and to make a better match with the frame height difference of the new C424's coming in around the same time.

The yellow lights up even more in the unmonkeyed with version, Geep. LOL Also, a direct scan of #90906 on a Polaroid taken by my own right index finger in Cleona, PA back in late '75. If they really did use the safety always yellow on there, then it's a real odd ball...


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Last edited by NVPete on Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:18 am, edited 11 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:14 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1773
Location: New Franklin, OH
NVPete wrote:
These are those two different Southern greens, Eric, 93-5800 on top and 93-1317 on the bottom...

Ummmm.... no, they are not.

Top photo of 6910 is definitely DuPont 1317 as stated previously.

Bottom photo of 8099 is DuPont/Axalta paint painstakingly color-matched to 1317 though it is urethane, not enamel. This unit was painted by NS at Altoona. I currently have no access to the paint codes used at Altoona or I would add them to the list.

At the risk of sounding snarky:

Please do not pick a color out of your book that looks close and state it as if it is, in fact, the same color. A statement of fact without proof or provenance is merely opinion. If someone else takes your statement as fact and used those paint codes, they will not have the correct color. Your book doesn’t begin to scratch the surface of all the colors produced by DuPont. The color codes on my list have all been researched from drawings, AFEs, specifications, etc. and from DuPont and PPG.

Do NOT use photos to determine color correctness. It is impossible to do so. I can shoot the same piece of equipment with the same camera with the same settings placed at the same position at one hour intervals and the color will be slightly different in each image. Not to mention two different subjects with varying degrees of weathering and lighting. You can speculate about the color but that is all you can do.

Railroad color research is a small passion of mine, odd that it is, and it interests me greatly to be correct with the information I provide. However, if we keep throwing out facts that aren’t facts, I’ll request this thread be locked.

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Turner of Wrenches, Drawer of Things


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:43 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
You can be as snarky as you wish, Eric, you're the codes guy. LOL Chasing down old engineering drawing paint numbers that are either unavailable or impossible to cross-reference at this point in time did not work for me so if I wanted to find the Reading colors, I had to try something else.

Sure, there are plenty of fleet colors with more added and some dropped all the time. The thing is, many of these colors have been well-established for decades and hearken back to the old two and three-digit codes of yore. Sometimes they were renumbered and sometimes not. To put it in the simplest of terms, while the code may change, the color remains basically the same.

I've been at this for over a year and am not taking it frivolously even though I'm attempting to present it in a somewhat lighthearted manner. Seriously, wouldn't it be better to have actual paint chips to go along with your codes? These colors weren't just used by the railroads so providing alternative examples is a good way to attempt to bridge the gap between what you have and something we can actually use.

Anyway, during the process of elimination of their use on the Reading, I've collected three separate codes for Southern greens, 88-5303, 93-5800, and 93-1317. Mentioned in more than one source, 93-5800 was used for the Crescent trains before Amtrak and apparently that came directly from an old-time Southern guy. As soon as can I find that specific reference again, I'll post it.

So which one of those is that Southern "Virginia Green", if any? Personally, I couldn't care less because its not a Reading color but perhaps there's someone else out there who'd really like to know. If you feel it's necessary for whatever reason to stymie the flow of good objective railroad preservation information, hey, go ahead, get the thread locked, and I'll just disappear to somewhere else.

Here's another decent example of 93-046 GMC Morat Green of which I recently ran across. Looks like a well-matched one-time repaint and the flake-off justifies why Geep could believe the Reading GP-30's may have been totally repainted...

http://www.2040-cars.com/Chevrolet/Othe ... ck-380002/

Here's one of those pics and my own close-up of the appropriate paint chip...


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moremorat.jpg
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1962readinggreen.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:48 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Okay Eric, the purpose of this post is to demonstrate how old photos can be used not to determine what the colors are, but a simple binary question as to whether they're the same or not.

I'll bet you've never seen this before, Geep, one of the GP-40-2's on the Lebanon Valley Branch of the crossline!!!

Now, both this photo and that of the crane were taken at approximately the same time, under the same conditions, from close to the same angle, and with the same camera using the same film.

The second pic is a sample of the frame stripe on a very crusty and rusty dusty #3671 while the third is that off the side of a relatively pristine clean #90906.

I'll let you guys decide...


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Last edited by NVPete on Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:34 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:28 pm
Posts: 292
NVPete wrote:

Anyway, during the process of elimination of their use on the Reading, I've collected three separate codes for Southern greens, 88-5303, 93-5800, and 93-1317. Mentioned in more than one source, 93-5800 was used for the Crescent trains before Amtrak and apparently that came directly from an old-time Southern guy. As soon as can I find that specific reference again, I'll post it.

So which one of those is that Southern "Virginia Green", if any? Personally, I couldn't care less because its not a Reading color but perhaps there's someone else out there who'd really like to know. If you feel it's necessary for whatever reason to stymie the flow of good objective railroad preservation information, hey, go ahead, get the thread locked, and I'll just disappear to somewhere else.


Probably neither. This is opening a whole other can of worms in relation to Southern Railway painting, but the last real reference to "Virginia Green" in Southern terms was when they switched from that to "Sylvan Green" in the late 1930s. Now, how much difference there was going from a varnished paint to an unvarnished paint to account for the difference in color, I'm not sure that anyone can tell you exactly. That said, I know someone who was involved with the steam program for some time in the 70s, and their comment is that Southern green wasn't even consistent across the system in the paint shops. Then, add in the Crescent Limited two-tone green paint scheme to complicate things even further. I've seen the darker green consistently listed as Virginia Green, but the lighter green stripe has been referenced as anything from Sylvan Green to an apple green.

The attached model car was painted in lacquer with paint chips, so perhaps it is correct under some version of Southern painting.....or not. Either way, that lighter green certainly isn't any version of Sylvan Green that I've seen despite some sources mentioning that is exactly what it was called. As a point of using photos to compare (and not taking fading into account), the color cast on my phone and computer monitor don't match, so obviously this example is generally invalid for a "real" comparison without the model there in person and the cards to see what--if any--of the correct greens match.

Attachment:
Crescent Limited small.jpg
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now, back to your regularly scheduled Reading green color debates...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:56 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Nice job on Rufus, Kevin!!! 93-1650, GMC Apple Green, is Plate #103 in the chip book. On old GMC trucks, it was considered to be the complimentary color for 93-2015 GMC Brewster Green, the dark Pullman Green color I believe was used on both the Reading and Great Northern.

Speaking of which, here's the PPG code for the BNSF color called "Charleston Green". No matching DuPont code is available...


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Last edited by NVPete on Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:16 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Oh boy, where's Phil at? Since he mentioned the Pennsylvania Railroad's Dark Green Locomotive Enamel earlier on, he'll definitely want to take a look at this blog entry I found concerning the history behind Charleston Green. It just so happens it may help at least partially explain the mythical origins of DGLE and even has a recipe included...

https://blog.luxurysimplified.com/histo ... ston-green

That's their color down there, for sure, but it might be a little too black for the Reading. Heck, they even put it on the fire trucks... LOL


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Last edited by NVPete on Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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